Soccer Thread 2013-14

[Grover]

Originally Posted by whomario

Also don´t see anyone blaming Courtois if he we were to commit a blunder. What´s his allegiance supposed to be for a club he has never played for ?

It would be sickening if he did purposely commit a blunder to aid Chelsea, but I don't think we'll see it. He's seemed pretty adamant that he wants the #1 shirt at Chelsea. I believe there's been veiled threats at times: "Start me in 2014/15 or sell me" type of stuff.

Either way, I think this is going to be a dreadful semi-final. An absolute war of attrition.

Jose vs. Real is really what I'm hoping for in the final at this point.

[The Jackal]

Will Arsenal further their collapse against Wigan? I sure hope not.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

He was always free to play against Chelsea if they paid up. The Chelsea CEO has not mentioned anything about clauses, and I suspect that there will be arguments behind closed doors this week.

I suspect that next season we will have a rule banning players appearing against their parent club in the Champions League, much like they do in the Premier League.

That isn't a 'rule' - its an optional clause which can be added when the loan is undertaken.

Generally in the Premiership its put into place because it might make the manager look bad ...

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

That isn't a 'rule' - its an optional clause which can be added when the loan is undertaken.

Generally in the Premiership its put into place because it might make the manager look bad ...

It's definitely a rule in the Premiership.

http://www.premierleague.com/content...ok-2013-14.pdf

Page 194, V.7.2

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Will Arsenal further their collapse against Wigan? I sure hope not.

Well it's looking that way now.

[kingfc22]

Now win this match.

[TroyF]

Horrible, but a win is a win. After the last few months, I'll take it.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

It's definitely a rule in the Premiership.

http://www.premierleague.com/content...ok-2013-14.pdf

Page 194, V.7.2

True I'd forgotten that for the Premiership (and not other leagues) it was commuted into an 'official' rule.

(makes note to update FMH )

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Katon

The last time UEFA expressed an opinion on loan players playing against their former club was back in July, when Elfsborg fielded a Celtic player against Celtic and they said the following:



(emphasis added)

So when the competition started, parent clubs forbidding their loanees to play against them was not enforceable by UEFA, but also not "a clear violation of both the UEFA Champions League and the UEFA Disciplinary Regulations" unless UEFA think they only need to consider their own regulations once the knockout stages start. Either they were being idiots in July, or they're mouthing off ad hoc with no explicit text to back them. If it's the latter, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

I'm not entirely sure what I want to happen with Courtois. On the one hand, this would be a silly reason for one of the world's best keepers to miss the CL semifinal. On the other hand, whether UEFA are selectively enforcing their own rules or changing the rules on the fly, it's not good behavior on their part and I'm not at all happy that my club's the one whose life gets harder because of it.

If he does play, I'd expect him to do an excellent job, both out of professionalism and in order to show Mourinho & Chelsea fans who he thinks should be starting for the club next season.

I feel sorry for the Chelsea fans, but the organization isn't popular across Europe.

For nearly a decade, I think Chelsea is possibly the most disliked football club in Europe for their people management and playing style. José Mourinho's reputation hasn't helped, of course, but I think it goes beyond that. There's no way to save face here for Chelsea, putting players in places all over Europe (on loan?), creating these awkward situations. Today it's Atletico Madrid, but next season it's some other club.

The KNVB (Dutch FA) is investigating a situation with Vitesse, which is heavily supported by Chelsea with loaned players, some media even claim that Chelsea co-owns Vitesse, but there's never been any open or official news about that. Vitesse had been on pace for clinching a Champions' League spot, but stories are leaking that loaned players are being pushed to tank and to not qualify for the Champions' League, to avoid awkward situations for Chelsea. Article from the BBC: BBC Sport - Chelsea: Vitesse Arnhem links investigated by Dutch FA

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Horrible, but a win is a win. After the last few months, I'll take it.

This. I've heard that some people were criticizing the players for celebrating a victory over Wigan. That's so stupid. The team has been decimated with injuries and confidence is at a season-low - it was great to see them excited.

It's an uphill battle to stay in the Champions League but they do have a run of beatable opponents.

[sovereignstar v2]

Luis Suarez is fucking despicable.

[sovereignstar v2]

So City is denied a penalty and the bucktoothed cunt should be off.

[sovereignstar v2]

Another penalty denied.

[cougarfreak]

Liverpool takes over the drivers seat today! Chelsea still right there with them.

[MrBug708]

Crystal Palace isn't in the bottom 3?

Stunned!

[Katon]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

The KNVB (Dutch FA) is investigating a situation with Vitesse, which is heavily supported by Chelsea with loaned players, some media even claim that Chelsea co-owns Vitesse, but there's never been any open or official news about that. Vitesse had been on pace for clinching a Champions' League spot, but stories are leaking that loaned players are being pushed to tank and to not qualify for the Champions' League, to avoid awkward situations for Chelsea. Article from the BBC: BBC Sport - Chelsea: Vitesse Arnhem links investigated by Dutch FA

My understanding is that Vitesse are owned by a friend of Abramovich named Alexander Chigirinsky, who stayed in the shadows for a while after putting the money up to buy the club, with the result that a lot of rumors started about Abramovich owning them because someone had to have funded the new owners and the club had gotten very cosy with Chelsea right at the same time.

The claim that Chelsea are pushing their players not to qualify for the CL has, so far, only been advanced by Merab Jordania, Chigirinsky's former front man at Vitesse, who has also been in the news recently for threatening to cut off the current Vitesse CEO's fingers
(article from a Chelsea blog with links to a couple of Dutch sources). It's a serious enough charge that the KNBV do need to investigate, but given that the source is one man with a giant grudge over being forced out of the club, who's been acting irrationally on other fronts and has a dodgy previous legal history including being arrested for tax evasion and embezzlement, this isn't the most credible accusation Chelsea have had thrown at them.

It's also an implausible one on a footballing level. Being able to offer loan CL football to prospects would be great for Chelsea both for developing the prospects they already have and for recruiting new ones. What problem would Vitesse being in the CL present to outweigh that? Chelsea could avoid the current Courtois situation quite easily by just letting loanees play against us - makes the players happier, makes Vitesse happier, and Chelsea should be able to beat Vitesse anyways because Vitesse are getting players who still have something to learn from the Eredivisie and are therefore unlikely to win a CL match single-handed.

TLDR that would be a stupid and amoral thing for Chelsea to do and I'm glad that the source is dubious enough that I don't have to think they're doing it.

I snipped the rest of your post because I agree with pretty much all of it. The current Chelsea management structure seems very good at exploiting the system from within its legal limits, which is a nice trait from a fan's perspective but not going to win us a whole lot of sympathy from anyone else, and the Courtois situation's a fine example of it. I'd have zero issue with UEFA issuing a ruling over the summer saying that clubs can't have any clause in a loan/transfer contract which would influence who plays in a UEFA competition, I just object to their preventing it by ad hoc bullshit.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Crystal Palace isn't in the bottom 3?

Stunned!

If it wasnt for Brendan Rodgers, Tony Pulis would be a good bet for manager of the year. The turnaround since he got there is amazing.

[Andreh]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

Luis Suarez is fucking despicable.

He should have gotten a 4 year international ban for what he did to Ghana. The same Thierry Henry, after that pathetic hand goal, ho could he be allowed to play the WC?

About the loan thing, aint that just unfair play. He is loaned, let him play. Hate those contracts.

[Critch]

Sounds like Yaya Toure is out for the season, and Diego Costa may have broken his leg. So that'll shake up a couple of championship run-ins.

Edit - Now they're saying Costa may just have a cut on his knee. Looked worse in real time.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Katon

My understanding is that Vitesse are owned by a friend of Abramovich named Alexander Chigirinsky, who stayed in the shadows for a while after putting the money up to buy the club, with the result that a lot of rumors started about Abramovich owning them because someone had to have funded the new owners and the club had gotten very cosy with Chelsea right at the same time.

The claim that Chelsea are pushing their players not to qualify for the CL has, so far, only been advanced by Merab Jordania, Chigirinsky's former front man at Vitesse, who has also been in the news recently for threatening to cut off the current Vitesse CEO's fingers
(article from a Chelsea blog with links to a couple of Dutch sources). It's a serious enough charge that the KNBV do need to investigate, but given that the source is one man with a giant grudge over being forced out of the club, who's been acting irrationally on other fronts and has a dodgy previous legal history including being arrested for tax evasion and embezzlement, this isn't the most credible accusation Chelsea have had thrown at them.

It's also an implausible one on a footballing level. Being able to offer loan CL football to prospects would be great for Chelsea both for developing the prospects they already have and for recruiting new ones. What problem would Vitesse being in the CL present to outweigh that? Chelsea could avoid the current Courtois situation quite easily by just letting loanees play against us - makes the players happier, makes Vitesse happier, and Chelsea should be able to beat Vitesse anyways because Vitesse are getting players who still have something to learn from the Eredivisie and are therefore unlikely to win a CL match single-handed.

TLDR that would be a stupid and amoral thing for Chelsea to do and I'm glad that the source is dubious enough that I don't have to think they're doing it.

I snipped the rest of your post because I agree with pretty much all of it. The current Chelsea management structure seems very good at exploiting the system from within its legal limits, which is a nice trait from a fan's perspective but not going to win us a whole lot of sympathy from anyone else, and the Courtois situation's a fine example of it. I'd have zero issue with UEFA issuing a ruling over the summer saying that clubs can't have any clause in a loan/transfer contract which would influence who plays in a UEFA competition, I just object to their preventing it by ad hoc bullshit.

Ah yes, the cutting off fingers story. We (I) do need to realize that Vitesse has a history of ownership craziness, going strong for over 20 years now. I can understand that you're waiving the claims away, with lack of better sources. I hope they're not true either, it would be another big hit to the credibility of the soccer world in general.

Then problematic part is that if Chelsea and Vitesse have the same owner(s), which is under investigation, then those owners would have to choose between Chelsea and Vitesse for signing up for the Champions' League.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Katon

I snipped the rest of your post because I agree with pretty much all of it. The current Chelsea management structure seems very good at exploiting the system from within its legal limits, which is a nice trait from a fan's perspective but not going to win us a whole lot of sympathy from anyone else, and the Courtois situation's a fine example of it. I'd have zero issue with UEFA issuing a ruling over the summer saying that clubs can't have any clause in a loan/transfer contract which would influence who plays in a UEFA competition, I just object to their preventing it by ad hoc bullshit.

FWIW, I don't think it's just Chelsea. The European top clubs are covering each other, knowing very well what they're doing. FC Barcelona got the first transfer ban for the dirty business, that we all know a lot of clubs have made themselves accustomed with.

[Critch]

On the vaguely Dutch football theme:



Pick that out.

[flere-imsaho]

That's a hell of a strike, and from what appears to be a fullback, no less.

[Grover]

Matty Jarvis, get in! COYI!

[Grover]

And my joy is shortlived.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

That's a hell of a strike, and from what appears to be a fullback, no less.

Yup, right side fullback. I saw him play live in a stadium and can say he's the type of player that is a joy to watch. Daryl Janmaat hopefully will be the guy wearing the orange #2 jersey at the upcoming world cup. Although with Gregory van der Wiel there's a quality alternative.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Yup, right side fullback. I saw him play live in a stadium and can say he's the type of player that is a joy to watch. Daryl Janmaat hopefully will be the guy wearing the orange #2 jersey at the upcoming world cup. Although with Gregory van der Wiel there's a quality alternative.

Who is the top spot for the left back spot on that team? Is it someone like Blind or Willems or could Martins Indi even move over there to anchor it?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Grover

And my joy is shortlived.

Sorry buddy.

[flere-imsaho]

MIJB - the Guardian has as their "World Cup Moment", #10, the 1988 strike from Bergkamp to win over Argentina. I had forgotten how unbelievable that strike was.

[Grover]

This 30/30 on Hillsborough is absolutely heartwrenching.

I've teared up a few times.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Yup, right side fullback. I saw him play live in a stadium and can say he's the type of player that is a joy to watch. Daryl Janmaat hopefully will be the guy wearing the orange #2 jersey at the upcoming world cup.

There seems to be a lot of press rumors that Janmaat has turned down a contract extension with Feyenoord and will be signing for Arsenal this summer.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Grover

This 30/30 on Hillsborough is absolutely heartwrenching.

I've teared up a few times.

It amazes me sometimes now people pretend that bad things won't happen despite the fact that any type of common sense could almost prevent entirely.

I will also never understand why concerts, events, etc. use open seating. I don't understand how people could not look at those situations and not see what could happen.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by rowech

It amazes me sometimes now people pretend that bad things won't happen despite the fact that any type of common sense could almost prevent entirely.

I will also never understand why concerts, events, etc. use open seating. I don't understand how people could not look at those situations and not see what could happen.

It amazes me that they were able to blame all of the people for this when it was quite obvious the stadium, police, etc were completely at fault.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Grover

This 30/30 on Hillsborough is absolutely heartwrenching.

I've teared up a few times.

Add me to this.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Grover

Who is the top spot for the left back spot on that team? Is it someone like Blind or Willems or could Martins Indi even move over there to anchor it?

Jetro Willems picked up a big knee injured against Feyenoord and will miss the World Cup. Blind and Martins Indi are the front runners now, I'm hoping for Martins Indi, as we could really use Blind in midfield at the spot of Kevin Strootman. But Martins Indi is also in the running for central defender. Maybe Alexander Büttner or Erik Pieters can make the team, at least they play at a better club level than all the Eredivisie options.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

MIJB - the Guardian has as their "World Cup Moment", #10, the 1988 strike from Bergkamp to win over Argentina. I had forgotten how unbelievable that strike was.

I suspect that had Dennis Bergkamp not played in the Premier League in 1998, that goal wouldn't have made that list of 25 moments. It was a phenomenal goal though, a typical Bergkamp goal and a World Cup classic for Oranje.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Jetro Willems picked up a big knee injured against Feyenoord and will miss the World Cup. Blind and Martins Indi are the front runners now, I'm hoping for Martins Indi, as we could really use Blind in midfield at the spot of Kevin Strootman. But Martins Indi is also in the running for central defender. Maybe Alexander Büttner or Erik Pieters can make the team, at least they play at a better club level than all the Eredivisie options.

No Giliano Wijnaldum yet?

He's wayyyy outperforming his ratings for me in FM.

[cartman]

A late goal by Gareth Bale gives RM the Copa Del Rey over Barcelona.

Here's a GIF:

[TroyF]

Everton with a huge upset loss today. The battle for fourth now looks like this:

Arsenal: 67 points
Everton: 66 points

Arsenal remaining: @Hull, Newcastle, West Brom, @Norwitch City
Everton remaining: ManU, @Southampten, ManCity, @Hull

I can't believe I'll be cheering for ManU this weekend. I feel kind of sick.

It's been a brutal, gut wrenching month and a half, but everything is set up if Arsenal really want it. They can end the year 4th again and end the trophy drought. Or they fall apart and end it with nothing and the Europa league.

[The Jackal]

Hopefully confidence will be brimming with the slate of opponents left. Can't look past any of them, but all beatable if they are motivated out there. Having Koscielny and Ramsey back is massive. And potentially ozil!

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by cartman

A late goal by Gareth Bale gives RM the Copa Del Rey over Barcelona.

Here's a GIF:

as a Tottenham fan, I really miss watching him..

[Andreh]

that was a hell of a goal, specially clinching the title against the arch rival

[law90026]

Bale is such a physical freak. Crazy strength and pace on that goal.

[flere-imsaho]

That's a truly ridiculous goal.

[flere-imsaho]

dola - and I can't tell who that defender is, but IMO he should have received a yellow (though the ref should have played the advantage) for what is clearly a blatant attempt to obstruct Bale. At one point they're both clearly 5 yards from the ball and he's still pushing Bale out of bounds. I get that defenders have tough jobs, but this kind of obstruction without any intent to play the ball happens far too much without penalty.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, watching that, just ... damn.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

dola - and I can't tell who that defender is, but IMO he should have received a yellow (though the ref should have played the advantage) for what is clearly a blatant attempt to obstruct Bale. At one point they're both clearly 5 yards from the ball and he's still pushing Bale out of bounds. I get that defenders have tough jobs, but this kind of obstruction without any intent to play the ball happens far too much without penalty.

Just curious. Obviously, the ref was letting the guy play on through the play and so he didn't call the foul. Even after the play is completed, can the ref then go back and assess a yellow card on that player for what was obviously a foul, regardless of whether the play ends in a goal or not?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Just curious. Obviously, the ref was letting the guy play on through the play and so he didn't call the foul. Even after the play is completed, can the ref then go back and assess a yellow card on that player for what was obviously a foul, regardless of whether the play ends in a goal or not?

Yep- and a good ref will.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Yep- and a good ref will.

Yes, and to be fair, I've now watched the play from another angle (the reverse angle) and it's much, much less of an obstruction than it looks like in that gif. For instance, what looks like the defender making a final shove on Bale is actually the defender's plant foot slipping.

Mea culpa.

It reminds me of a time (years ago) that a buddy and I were watching a Serie A* game that Pierluigi Collina was reffing. We were huge Collina fans and considered him one of the best, if not the best, ref in the world, but it appeared as we watched the game that he made 3 or 4 absolute howlers. At the end of the game they replayed the key incidents in slow-mo and it was clear he made the exact right call each and every time.

So yeah, refs have a tough job. I also miss Collina reffing games. He had a great stare.


*on Football Italiano with James Richardson, for you UK-types (in the late-90s).

[SirFozzie]

So, Cardiff are claiming that their 3-0 loss to Crystal Palace shouldn't count because an ex-Cardiff guy (now working for Crystal Palace) got the starting lineups from Cardiff folks days before the game.