Soccer Thread 2013-14

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Which is horeshit in my opinon, and why you don't sign a coach to an extension that runs through the next world cup. It screws with his decision making. You go to win this time, not think about what might happen 4 years from now.

Maybe if you're a team like Spain, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, etc.... But when you're a team almost guaranteed to qualify each time, but in a particular year not likely to even make it out of your group, planning for the future sounds fine to me.

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Bingo on both accounts. If we're going with the youth movement and don't cafe about 2014 then why weren't these players getting key experience during the hex.

Because they didn't know the group draw was going to be so difficult when they were playing the hex.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I guess I see it a little differently. I think Donovan has been playing pretty poor this year. He just hasn't found his stride and his body isn't really working all that well either. I remember back in '06 when Reyna was the big star leading the team. He was the same age and rough experience as Donovan. He was awful. He was old, slow and just couldn't make it in the big time anymore.

Klinsmann at the least knows that these games are going to be super physical in the heat. He knows that youth is probably better served and he knows that he has to make the move some time.

Now, there could be loads of political crap behind it, but at least my justification makes some sense.

As I posted on FB because I didn't want to drag out my ipad to post to the board last night - it's bittersweet. LD definitely wasn't playing up to the level of some of the other guys this year so I understand it from that perspective. I think there was also some element of the Klinsi and him not getting along though, due to his "sabbatical" and whatever. I just don't think Klinsi understood why he'd take a sabbatical - I think that really colored their relationship.

That being said - I don't think he was going to be the difference-maker for this team, although his experience will be missed. The team's not going to make or break based on the fact that he's there or not. It's going to be made or broken based on the fact that these guys have minimial experience, the backline is shaky, and whether or not they can get service to Jozy/Dempsey.

It's definitely bittersweet though - the end of an era. It's not going to feel "right" that's for sure. But I imagine every team goes through that with their "talismanic" players.

edit: hadn't read butters' post before I posted, but clearly it's obvious what it's going to take for this team to go through.

[cschex]

The "in-form" argument breaks down when you take Julian Green over Donovan, Which is basically Theo Walcott going to the 2006 WC. Green won't see any significant playing time so why not use that last spot on someone who might actually help you now instead of in 4 years. There is no guarantee that you get an easier group draw in 2018

[gstelmack]

Donovan skipped 2013 and wasn't sure he really wanted to play in the World Cup. I'm fine with Klinnsman moving on, hiring him was all about getting US Soccer fixed for the long term.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

If only because he's the first guy you'd want to substitute in down 2-0 ten minutes into the second half. It's hard to create goals in those situations - that's when the experience pays off.

Bingo. Yes, Landon may not be in the best possible form, but there is no one else I'd rather have off the bench when you need to score quick goals.

It does look like Klinsman is making a power play. Then again, when he managed Germany, he brought a really young team in the World Cup in 2006 and made it to 3rd place. So maybe that's just his thing.

[ISiddiqui]

And lets be honest, he may have been struggling with the Galaxy, but in the Gold Cup last year and in the win over Mexico, Donovan was pretty impressive.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by cschex

The "in-form" argument breaks down when you take Julian Green over Donovan, Which is basically Theo Walcott going to the 2006 WC. Green won't see any significant playing time so why not use that last spot on someone who might actually help you now instead of in 4 years. There is no guarantee that you get an easier group draw in 2018

Yeah, I made the argument, but I suppose Jozy Altidore kills that argument too.

[Easy Mac]

Any time you can take an 18 year old playing in the 4th tier of Germany over one of the best players of his generation, you have to do it.

[larrymcg421]

I'm definitely super confident about the USA's chances in 2018 now that some young player will get three games of World Cup experience (probably sitting on the bench).

[Grover]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Any time you can take an 18 year old playing in the 4th tier of Germany over one of the best players of his generation, you have to do it.

He's the best American player by a long distance, except for maybe Dempsey. Who at least proved he could do it in Europe for a sustained amount of time. Bradley deserves mention as well, but disappointing he came back to MLS so early.

He's definitely not one of the best world players of his generation though.

[Easy Mac]

I thought it was implied that the "best players of his generation" was as far as Americans go.

[DaddyTorgo]

Maybe Green was "promised" a spot (to some degree of promise, who knows) for choosing USA over Germany?

In which case, if it's the spot at the end of the bench, why not.

I have just as much issue with Wondo over Donovan. Wondo (one game aside) has never shown he can do ANYTHING at the international level either. So why no hang-wringing over that??

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I'm definitely super confident about the USA's chances in 2018 now that some young player will get three games of World Cup experience (probably sitting on the bench).

Exactly. If anyone can explain to me what 2-3 substitute appearances of 20 minutes will do that four years of club play will not, i'm all ears. Also, here are the tournaments we have between now and then:

2015 Gold Cup
2016 Copa America (best of Concacaf + all of South America, played in the USA)
2016 Olympics
2016-2017 World Cup Qualifying
2017 Confederations Cup
2017 Gold Cup


No room to get any experience in there.. right?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Grover

He's the best American player by a long distance, except for maybe Dempsey.

You looking at the red bars, or only the green ones? The dude has made 1 senior club apperance, 1 senior national team appearance. Both as substitutes. In what world does this make him the "best american player by a long distance?"

[Solecismic]

I guess his point is that he's looked at the three other teams in his group, determined there's a 1 in 10 chance of reaching the round of 16, so why do anything at all that doesn't lead toward a better performance in 2018?

To someone with Klinsmann's deep knowledge of the sport, that makes sense. But we're more a "Miracle on Ice" culture, and we expect our teams to chase that 1 in 10.

So I think Klinsmann is wrong here. There is a cost to giving Green three games of watching, perhaps 10 minutes of running around aimlessly while Germany or Portugal protects its two-goal lead quite efficiently.

That cost is the message the team received today - which is the guy who has created the best magic "we can beat 10-to-1 odds" in U.S. soccer history isn't making the team perhaps in part due to a personal rift.

I'm not saying this means Klinsmann risks losing the team over this. It's a risk. The team could view this as an "I'm telling you Donovan has lost his magic - you have to create it yourselves now" message. Which could be a positive in the long run. But I see what Donovan did even in short minutes against Mexico last month and I have a hard time understanding this. As someone who doesn't know Donovan personally, my reaction is still disbelief and frustration with this decision.

[RainMaker]

I'm kind of torn on the move. On one hand, I understand the message it sends to the next generation. He wants a hungry team that will commit.

On the other, when you are going into a tournament at a massive talent disadvantage, you might not want to leave a guy with that kind of talent and experience at home.

We'll see how it turns out. If the USMNT flames out Klinsmann will have to eat a lot of that blame.

[JonInMiddleGA]

How much can a team that seems to have no realistic expectations of success this go round actually "flame out"?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

How much can a team that seems to have no realistic expectations of success this go round actually "flame out"?

If they get crushed in all 3, that'd be a flame out. I think people expect them to be at least remotely competitive.

[larrymcg421]

To me the "we don't have a chance" and "Donovan's poor form" arguments are completely contrary ideas.

If we have a chance, then it makes sense to just field the best team possible no matter how long someone has been a part of the team. Thus if his form is poor, we have to boot him.

If we don't have a chance, then why not just give the legendary veteran one last hurrah?

But it seems like people think that the few minutes this random player will get will somehow translate to greatness 4 years later. I find that to be an incredibly absurd idea.

[MrBug708]

Does this signal Donovan's end in international soccer?

[bhlloy]

Do people really think the US is going to do that badly? Portugal is three or four players deep (yes one is the best player in the world) and haven't exactly been lighting the world on fire in a few years, and Ghana is a complete crapshoot which team you get. I could easily make a case for the US finishing second in that group. Nowhere near as bleak as 1 in 10 IMO

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Do people really think the US is going to do that badly? Portugal is three or four players deep (yes one is the best player in the world) and haven't exactly been lighting the world on fire in a few years, and Ghana is a complete crapshoot which team you get. I could easily make a case for the US finishing second in that group. Nowhere near as bleak as 1 in 10 IMO

Ghana fucking owns the US...Portugal may only be 3-4 players deep, but thats all they'll need. I predict 3 losses, or at best 1 draw. But then again I'm the resident pessimist.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Does this signal Donovan's end in international soccer?

I believe so. I think it's personal between Klinsmann and Donovan. And I don't think Donovan is going to want to settle for B-team callups, so that would be a reason to retire internationally. I don't he'll be playing much longer at all actually, and I think this will actually hasten it. I would bet he retires by the end of 2015.

I would love to be wrong through, as the US has a lot of big tournaments coming up. We've never really had a spread quite like this.

2015: Gold Cup (this is the A-team version of the tournament)
2016: Copa America (huge showpiece tournament... this will rival the 2016 Euros)
2016: Olympics (this is a Under 23 tournament, but you can have 3 over-23 players)
2017: Confederations Cup. There is no guarantee we are there, but we have at minimum clinched a 1-game playoff to get there. If we win the 2015 Gold Cup we are there. If we don't, we have a 1-game playoff with whoever does win the 2015 Gold Cup to see who goes.
2017: Gold Cup (B-team version)
2018: World Cup

And you have 2018 WC qualifying starting in early 2016, getting fairly serious in late 2016, and getting very serious in all of 2017.

[terpkristin]

I can see both sides of it, but in general I'm bummed about LD being left off the WC roster. FiveThirtyEight had a little blurb on it. They're not soccer dudes, but looking at the stats, they make the case...

Should Landon Donovan Be Going to the World Cup? | FiveThirtyEight

/tk

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

I can see both sides of it, but in general I'm bummed about LD being left off the WC roster. FiveThirtyEight had a little blurb on it. They're not soccer dudes, but looking at the stats, they make the case...

Should Landon Donovan Be Going to the World Cup? | FiveThirtyEight

/tk

Some good points in that article, but then she ends it with a random statement not supported by anything she presented earlier.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Some good points in that article, but then she ends it with a random statement not supported by anything she presented earlier.

"But the fact that the men’s national team is finally bigger than one player is great news for soccer in America."

In retrospect this may prove to be a milestone in US Soccer history, but it's absolute speculation to say something like that now. Landon Donovan is probably the only player anyone can name off the US team (if they can name one at all), so I fail to see how that's actually even true.

Also i'm really not convinced Klinsmann is doing it for the right reasons. I think he may be doing it simply because he can, and he wants to flex his muscles. It could work. This could be Belicheck announcing Tom Brady would be the starter for the rest of the season when Bledsoe got injured, or this could be more like Rick Pitino's "Larry Bird's not walking through that door" tirade. Only time will tell.

I would say it's a positive that the country seems to care enough to be outraged by the decision. I think no matter how you slice it that's a positive. Plus at least it provides a ready-made storyline for the WC.

[BishopMVP]

My overall feeling - Does Landon Donovan deserve to go? Maybe, maybe not. Does Chris Wondolowski, Julian Green or Brad Davis deserve to go? Hell no.

I also think the 1 in 10 crowd is severely underestimating our chances to go through. A country that's always been known for a high workrate that'll be playing in hot conditions and gets Germany in their 3rd game when they might've clinched? It's not the easiest draw, but it's not the group of death many people are making it out to be.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

My overall feeling - Does Landon Donovan deserve to go? Maybe, maybe not. Does Chris Wondolowski, Julian Green or Brad Davis deserve to go? Hell no.

I think they all deserve to go, but I would drop any of them without a second thought for Landon. Davis or Green would actually be my picks to get replaced. We'd be too thin at striker if we pull Wondo.

Wondolowski is having the most unbelievable sports career I've ever seen by the way. It's like "Rudy" on a professional level. I don't think I've seen a similar career in any other sport, ever.

Total late bloomer. Pro at 22. Effectively on the practice squad until 26. Then when he got a chance he immediately became the league's leading scorer for 3 straight years. Breaks into the national team around 30 years old, and now going to the World Cup. Crazy.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I also think the 1 in 10 crowd is severely underestimating our chances to go through. A country that's always been known for a high workrate that'll be playing in hot conditions and gets Germany in their 3rd game when they might've clinched? It's not the easiest draw, but it's not the group of death many people are making it out to be.

Yup - I think the US has the less top end talent of the group, but I have a strong suspicion they are the second best team.

Of course the last time I commented on a US national team, it was to say that the US mens hockey would skate all over Canada in the olympic final, so you guys may want me to shut up on this one

As for Wondolowski over Donovan - that says it all right there. Donovan might have had a bad year and be on the downhill slope but he's still twice the player against a real opponent. Had to be personal, which sucks.

[ISiddiqui]

Let me echo the 1 in 10 is way too harsh. Remember, this tourney is in South America, not Europe. And European squads have already complained that it is going to be too hot. The US may have an advantage based on playing in hot weather over Germany and even Portugal.

[kingfc22]

Looking forward to a great game today. Hopefully Costa can make it 90 minutes.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Looking forward to a great game today. Hopefully Costa can make it 90 minutes.

so much for that Out after barely 10. In a 120 minute match (potentially), that is not a good thing regardless of Costa.

Khedira starting so soon after coming back from a torn ACL is pretty surprising. Goes to show how highly he is regarded by ANcelotti (which is in line with basically all his previous coaches)

[gstelmack]

Again, if Donovan had shown much desire or heart over the last 2 years, I'd be right there with everyone. But given his uncertainty, I'd rather have some hungry young talent eager to prove themselves over the aging veteran just going through the motions.

[kingfc22]

I would be very surprised if Atletico is able to have 11 guys on the pitch at the end of the extra 30 minutes with all the yellow cards so far combined with their style of play.

[whomario]

picture perfect header by Ramos, wow.

[MrBug708]

This is like most FM games for me, on the losing end

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by whomario

picture perfect header by Ramos, wow.

And an incredibly tough one by Bale to win it.

[DaddyTorgo]

The 2 extra goals just really skew the scoreline of what was effectively a very close match. Atletico didn't do an effective job closing up shop and it bit them in injury time.

They never really looked like much of a threat aside from their one goal, which was as much Casillas' fault, so once it got tied up I think their best bet was to play for PKs probably. But they did a poor job of that.

Ronaldo and Bale were really poor throughout though - at least Bale was up until he put away the chance in extra time. His questionable-PK notwithstanding, Ronaldo did basically nothing all game. Madrid didn't look dangerous until Marcelo came on really - questionable by Ancelotti not to start him.

[MIJB#19]

The man of 100M delivered for the club with a debt of 500M!

[AlexB]

Very harsh way to lose the Championship play off final for Derby, but as a Leicester fan I don't mind at all

QPR had a man sent off midway in the second half, had 35% possession throughout the match, and no shots on target until the 93rd minute, when, yup - you've guessed it a mistake presented the ball to Bobby Zamora 10 yards out and he scores!

[Marc Vaughan]

If you've got Bobby* in your team you've always got a chance

*ex-Brighton legend

[miami_fan]

PTs in the League One Final.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, it seems like Donovan just said "poor form, this!"

[MrBug708]

Mike Magee
@magee9

HAHAHAHAHAHA DONOVAN HAHAHAHAHA I DIDNT EVEN NOTICE HE BROKE THE MLS GOAL SCORING RECORD UNTIL MY PHONE NOTIFIED ME ������ HAHA #LegenD

[flere-imsaho]

Good article here continuing the conversation we've been having in this thread about why the EPL may (or may not) be hindering the development of talent for the English national team: Jack Rodwell’s stasis says more about football than Yaya Touré row does | Barney Ronay | Football | The Guardian

One thing that struck me is that I don't recall any era where significant numbers of Englishmen played abroad, yet this doesn't seem true for any other nationality. Or is it?

The article, for instance, notes that when Yaya Toure was Rodwell's age, he had already played full-time in four different countries, going where he would get first team action. Surely plenty of English players could find similar action in various leagues across Europe. Why don't they?

[vex]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Good article here continuing the conversation we've been having in this thread about why the EPL may (or may not) be hindering the development of talent for the English national team: Jack Rodwell’s stasis says more about football than Yaya Touré row does | Barney Ronay | Football | The Guardian

One thing that struck me is that I don't recall any era where significant numbers of Englishmen played abroad, yet this doesn't seem true for any other nationality. Or is it?

The article, for instance, notes that when Yaya Toure was Rodwell's age, he had already played full-time in four different countries, going where he would get first team action. Surely plenty of English players could find similar action in various leagues across Europe. Why don't they?

Loved this, "Instead he has remained a squad-balancing punt and token Englishman, the footballing equivalent of a set of Aztec nose flutes purchased by Prince Charles during a walkabout at a tourist bazaar and destined to be stashed at the back of the royal vaults in between the Tongan fertility gourds and a jeroboam of something awful from Lithuania."

[Grover]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Good article here continuing the conversation we've been having in this thread about why the EPL may (or may not) be hindering the development of talent for the English national team: Jack Rodwell’s stasis says more about football than Yaya Touré row does | Barney Ronay | Football | The Guardian

One thing that struck me is that I don't recall any era where significant numbers of Englishmen played abroad, yet this doesn't seem true for any other nationality. Or is it?

The article, for instance, notes that when Yaya Toure was Rodwell's age, he had already played full-time in four different countries, going where he would get first team action. Surely plenty of English players could find similar action in various leagues across Europe. Why don't they?

I feel like Italians are really the only others that tend to stay in their home country. Obviously that has changed a bit in recent years, but how many Italy players going to the World Cup play outside of Italy?

[Grover]

Quick research shows Sirigu, Thiago Motta and Marco Veratti are the only 3 Italians playing abroad. All of them at PSG.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well, it seems like Donovan just said "poor form, this!"

Is that comma in the wrong place or am I reading it wrong, because I'm imagining a vengeful "Poor form THIS!"... not the English way of saying a different thing that you wrote.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Grover

Quick research shows Sirigu, Thiago Motta and Marco Veratti are the only 3 Italians playing abroad. All of them at PSG.

And Motta was born and grew up in Brazil, but made it on to the Italian team because he held dual citizenship.