US army will deploy at home for the first time

[Surtt]

hxxp://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/25/us_army_bct_home_deployment/

A US army brigade combat unit will be deployed at home for the first time, the Army Times reports.

The 1st BCT (Brigade Combat Team), numbering about 650 personnel, has returned from Iraq. But rather than dealing with enemy combatants, it may be called to deal with unruly Americans.

The Team "may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack."

The troops will be testing "a new modular package of nonlethal capabilities" for the first time. The BCT will be based in Georgia, the paper reports.

The Posse Comitatus Act forbids the use of the US military at home. So the task of dealing with domestic "emergencies" has been the role of the National Guard, for whom there is an exemption. But the demarcation has blurred in recent years, with the National Guard called up to bolster the military occupation of Iraq.

October is traditionally the month of surprises in the US political calendar. But this year, October has come early.

I would think something like this would get a little domestic press.

[sterlingice]

Um... that's kindof bad. I know it's just 650 but that's just not a good precedent.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

hmmm - methinx this is a very bad precedent

[Greyroofoo]

...from a very bad president, ha-ha!

[Mustang]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Posse Comitatus act does not forbid the use of federal forces at home, but rather prohibits them from performing in a capacity where they are doing law enforcement except under an act of congress.

You're kidding yourself if you think that the military would not get involved in a chemical, bio or nuclear attack or civil unrest to the degree where local law enforcement and/or national guard forces were overwhelmed. Plus, I think the American public would demand it in times of crisis so, you might as well train for it.

The army article says this is the first time an active until has been assigned to Northcom for this task so, that suggests there are reserve units assigned to this task in times of crisis.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Posse Comitatus act does not forbid the use of federal forces at home, but rather prohibits them from performing in a capacity where they are doing law enforcement except under an act of congress.

And Congress has given the president unanimous authority (except maybe Ron Paul) to act in this way in various annual defense authorization bills.

It's not a big deal. I'm sure the government has all kinds of crazy contigency plans for emergencies that involve FAR more than 650 federal military personnel.

[Shkspr]

Active duty units served in the wake of Katrina. This is simply formalizing the arrangement in advance so the Army knows exactly which units to send. In addition, the unit will get specialized training on nonlethal force programs. The limey paper is just trying to stir up shit.

[I. J. Reilly]

Didn’t Eisenhower use the 101st during the desegregation battles?

[DaddyTorgo]

i heard the black helicoptors are fueling up...

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

Didn’t Eisenhower use the 101st during the desegregation battles?

Yes, I believe the Little Rock 9 were escorted by the 101st.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by molson

It's not a big deal. I'm sure the government has all kinds of crazy contigency plans for emergencies that involve FAR more than 650 federal military personnel.

I'm sure they do. Some of which probably violate every current constituitional amendment and some which probably haven't even been written yet....

[Raiders Army]

A US army brigade combat unit will be deployed at home for the first time, the Army Times reports.

The 1st BCT (Brigade Combat Team), numbering about 650 personnel, has returned from Iraq. But rather than dealing with enemy combatants, it may be called to deal with unruly Americans.

The Team "may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack."

The troops will be testing "a new modular package of nonlethal capabilities" for the first time. The BCT will be based in Georgia, the paper reports.

The Posse Comitatus Act forbids the use of the US military at home. So the task of dealing with domestic "emergencies" has been the role of the National Guard, for whom there is an exemption. But the demarcation has blurred in recent years, with the National Guard called up to bolster the military occupation of Iraq.

October is traditionally the month of surprises in the US political calendar. But this year, October has come early.

This is nothing new. Troops deploy to NTC or JRTC all the time for training. It's not as if they're deploying to conduct an actual real-world mission.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I'm sure they do. Some of which probably violate every current constituitional amendment and some which probably haven't even been written yet....

When the aliens finally attack, surely you'll want more than a piece of paper to protect us.

[Fighter of Foo]

We've always used the military to handle emergencies and the law permits that.

This is everyday law enforcement which is explicitly forbidden. I'm sure there's some Bush law or signing statement that says he thinks it's OK.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

This is everyday law enforcement which is explicitly forbidden. I'm sure there's some Bush law or signing statement that says he thinks it's OK.

I must have missed where they were involved in "everyday law enforcement"....

I mean, I didn't see any federal troops making traffic stops on the way to work today, but hey, maybe that's happening everywhere else except my commute.

[Surtt]

A little more info.
hxxp://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_homeland_090708w/

It is not the first time an active-duty unit has been tapped to help at home. In August 2005, for example, when Hurricane Katrina unleashed hell in Mississippi and Louisiana, several active-duty units were pulled from various posts and mobilized to those areas.

But this new mission marks the first time an active unit has been given a dedicated assignment to NorthCom, a joint command established in 2002 to provide command and control for federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate defense support of civil authorities.

Probably not a big deal in the "big" picture, as the national guard has been doing the same thing.
But it does set a bad precedence and as far as I can tell violates the Posse Comitatus Act.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by molson

When the aliens finally attack, surely you'll want more than a piece of paper to protect us.

When?

You see them on the street. You watch them on TV. You might even vote for one this fall. You think they're people just like you.

You're wrong.

Dead wrong.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

This is nothing new. Troops deploy to NTC or JRTC all the time for training. It's not as if they're deploying to conduct an actual real-world mission.

Aaah...good ol' Fort Polk. Don't miss THAT place.

[JediKooter]

I see this as the begining of preperation for the coming zombie hordes.

[sachmo71]

something about zombies

[Sun Tzu]

Fuck militarism.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Fuck militarism.

You've tweaked your schtick a little.

(That actually sounds dirty).

But seriously, we'd all love a world without military. And doctors, and lawyers, and policeman. The only thing that gets in the way is reality.

[Sun Tzu]

Stupid reality!

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by molson

I must have missed where they were involved in "everyday law enforcement"....

I mean, I didn't see any federal troops making traffic stops on the way to work today, but hey, maybe that's happening everywhere else except my commute.

That's a good thing. Long may it continue. Unfortunately, from the Army Times...

The 1st BCT’s soldiers also will learn how to use “the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded,” 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.


“It’s a new modular package of nonlethal capabilities that they’re fielding. They’ve been using pieces of it in Iraq, but this is the first time that these modules were consolidated and this package fielded, and because of this mission we’re undertaking we were the first to get it.”


The package includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and, beanbag bullets.

...

“If we go in, we’re going in to help American citizens on American soil, to save lives, provide critical life support, help clear debris, restore normalcy and support whatever local agencies need us to do, so it’s kind of a different role,” said Cloutier, who, as the division operations officer on the last rotation, learned of the homeland mission a few months ago while they were still in Iraq.

[stevew]

Sweet. Does this mean they finally plan on beefing up border security?

Oh, yeah.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Aaah...good ol' Fort Polk. Don't miss THAT place.

*shudder*

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

That's a good thing. Long may it continue. Unfortunately, from the Army Times...

The 1st BCT’s soldiers also will learn how to use “the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded,” 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.


“It’s a new modular package of nonlethal capabilities that they’re fielding. They’ve been using pieces of it in Iraq, but this is the first time that these modules were consolidated and this package fielded, and because of this mission we’re undertaking we were the first to get it.”


The package includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and, beanbag bullets.

...

“If we go in, we’re going in to help American citizens on American soil, to save lives, provide critical life support, help clear debris, restore normalcy and support whatever local agencies need us to do, so it’s kind of a different role,” said Cloutier, who, as the division operations officer on the last rotation, learned of the homeland mission a few months ago while they were still in Iraq.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Are you afraid of the government using soldiers against American citizens?

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Are you afraid of the government using soldiers against American citizens?

They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack.

Part of their mission is to be used against American citizens.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Part of their mission is to be used against American citizens.

Only ones that turn into zombines.

You guys are so cynical about everything. I think some people are getting antsy that the election is approaching and Bush hasn't tried to suspend it yet, or drop any nuclear weapons on the mideast, or any of the other wacky stuff the hippies in Eugene, OR promised me would go down.

Federal troops are not going to go out and start breaking up riots in America unless the police and national guard are completely overwhelmed.

[SackAttack]

First time since Reconstruction, but not the first time, period.

Although I guess that kind of hair-splitting depends on whether you considered folks living in the separatist states to be Citizens post-Confederacy (and prior to the ratification of the 13th-15th Amendments).

[Maple Leafs]

Glenn Greenwald at Salon has written a few pieces on this in the past week.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by molson

You guys are so cynical about everything. I think some people are getting antsy that the election is approaching and Bush hasn't tried to suspend it yet, or drop any nuclear weapons on the mideast, or any of the other wacky stuff the hippies in Eugene, OR promised me would go down.

I know I tend to be "half empty" and "the sky is falling" over this type of stuff.
650 combat troops are not going to take on the 300 million others.

If this was an isolated instance I would not think too much about it. But with all the other lawless acts the government has done lately, this type of thing is really starting to bother me.

And damn it!
Get those kids off my yard!

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Part of their mission is to be used against American citizens.

I think may is the operative word. I think that there are many examples in recent history of the military training for missions that (hopefully) will never occur. Hell, when I went through school we were doing MDMP for the USSR. We have CONPLANs for Korea. Just because you train for something doesn't mean it's going to happen. The other thing is that it's better to be trained than not trained. Actually you should be happy they're doing the training, since if they didn't they'd probably kill a lot of innocent people if called upon.

Glass half full.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

The other thing is that it's better to be trained than not trained. Actually you should be happy they're doing the training, since if they didn't they'd probably kill a lot of innocent people if called upon.

I agree with you there.
I think they could have chosen a more appropriate organization to train.

[fantom1979]

Like the boy scouts

[JediKooter]

All I know is, when old man Jenkins tries to take a bite out of Mr. Wallabies neck, I'll be thankful those 650 troops are near by.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by molson

You've tweaked your schtick a little.

(That actually sounds dirty).

But seriously, we'd all love a world without military. And doctors, and lawyers, and policeman. The only thing that gets in the way is reality.

WTF!?! What did the doctors ever do wrong?

[EagleFan]

lol, much ado about nothing. Of course the usual suspects are stirring it up. I think they need some more tin foil for their hats.

Of course these people would be the first ones complaining when something happens and there is no prepared response (or the response doesn't meet their 'expectations').

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

lol, much ado about nothing. Of course the usual suspects are stirring it up. I think they need some more tin foil for their hats.

Of course these people would be the first ones complaining when something happens and there is no prepared response (or the response doesn't meet their 'expectations').

If you actually believe that....

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

Only ones that turn into zombies.

What do you arm zombie killers with, anyways? I mean werewolves need silver bullets, stakes for vampires, but what about zombies?

SI

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Are you afraid of the government using soldiers against American citizens?

I'm quoting the article. I'm against the federal government getting more power to do just about anything. There's almost nothing good that can come out of it.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

WTF!?! What did the doctors ever do wrong?

Well for starters, they haven't found a cure for Zombieism yet.

What, you expect to just be able to sit down with a Zombie and discuss their feelings????

We NEED those 650...

[molson]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

WTF!?! What did the doctors ever do wrong?

Well, I'm sure they've done lots of shit wrong, but my point is just that in a perfect world, we wouldn't need them (because nobody would be sick).

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by molson

When the aliens finally attack, surely you'll want more than a piece of paper to protect us.

If we fixed the fucking boarder they wouldn't bee here in the first place!

Interesting that a president who joined the national guard to avoid serving in the military that was deployed overseas will make it policy to have the army do the job of the national guard, who now are sent overseas to guard the nation so that the fight isn't here... or something like that. I need coffee.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

What do you arm zombie killers with, anyways? I mean werewolves need silver bullets, stakes for vampires, but what about zombies?

SI

You MUST kill the brain. Anything will do, just kill the brain.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

You MUST kill the brain. Anything will do, just kill the brain.

Mmmmmmm.... brains.....

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

What do you arm zombie killers with, anyways? I mean werewolves need silver bullets, stakes for vampires, but what about zombies?

SI

Glaives from Krull

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

You MUST kill the brain. Anything will do, just kill the brain.

Please explain this a little more. What if I only hit the Occipital Lobe? Do I just blind the zombie or is it dead? If the rest of the brain is functioning then couldn't it still attack me?

What if I captured a zombie and removed its entire Limbic system? Would that remove the threat at that point since its desire for human flesh would be gone?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

That's a good thing. Long may it continue. Unfortunately, from the Army Times...

The 1st BCT’s soldiers also will learn how to use “the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded,” 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.


“It’s a new modular package of nonlethal capabilities that they’re fielding. They’ve been using pieces of it in Iraq, but this is the first time that these modules were consolidated and this package fielded, and because of this mission we’re undertaking we were the first to get it.”


The package includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and, beanbag bullets.

...

“If we go in, we’re going in to help American citizens on American soil, to save lives, provide critical life support, help clear debris, restore normalcy and support whatever local agencies need us to do, so it’s kind of a different role,” said Cloutier, who, as the division operations officer on the last rotation, learned of the homeland mission a few months ago while they were still in Iraq.

Sounds like it's hippie clobbering time

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Mmmmmmm.... brains.....

BTW, those zombies can't be killed by destroying their brain. The only way to destroy those zombies was by incinerating them. You could temporarily paralyze them by electrocuting them but that was about it.

See Return of the Living Dead I and II. I watched 3, but it was a piece of shit.