Are most of us wrong about DB coverage?

[HotShot232]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

I think a large part of the issue is peoples perceptions on how dominate or weak a player should or should not be and how often they should be dominate. Reggie White was a GREAT DE but he was not sacking the QB every other play every game. Some people have that expectation though in these video games. I think they have Reggie White playing perfect in this game. He may not get the sack, but he brings heavy pressure, especially on 3rd and 4th downs. To some that aint enough, but who would be right ? Its like this with every position in the game. This leads to there needs to be a HEAVY discussion between us and the devs on how much I the user and the AI have on making great players GREAT in these video football games. Play calling, my stick skills, and the AI, how well I make adjustments all impact this. Thats why we have such a hugh swing of opinions of who thinks the game plays good and who thinks it plays like crap.

This is were we can easily show you that reggie white is NOT playing up to par on default game. Most plays in the NFL give the QB 3 to 5 secs in the pocket. 5 being FOREVER for the QB. In APF, 5+ is the standard. VERY seldom does the D-line get pressure in under 3 seconds.

Most downs in the NFL after the 3 step drop LB's or D-linemen are either in the QB's face or tearing down the pocket. It happens VERY quick. Not so much default APF.

This I find is the easiest and quickest way to judge. NOT based on who and how good, but by standards and norms. The norm is the QB releases the ball in 3 to 4 seconds and has pressure sooner or not very long after. APF default sliders are to weak for the D-line given the QB's way to much time to scan the field and make perfect throws with feet planted. Not often enough are the QB's in APF forced to get rid of the ball ASAP or scramble out the pocket throwing the ball away.

Up until I started using these sliders I did not even know the button for throwing the ball away. I QUICKLY learned that just like in real life, if they send intense heat to dump to HB or roll out and get rid of it. NEVER before was that even a thought because EVERY blitzer gets picked up and the ones that don't react so slow that the ball is away before they get to the QB.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by HotShot232

This is were we can easily show you that reggie white is NOT playing up to par on default game. Most plays in the NFL give the QB 3 to 5 secs in the pocket. 5 being FOREVER for the QB. In APF, 5+ is the standard. VERY seldom does the D-line get pressure in under 3 seconds. Most downs in the NFL after the 3 step drop LB's or D-linemen are either in the QB's face or tearing down the pocket. It happens VERY quick. Not so much default APF. This I find is the easiest and quickest way to judge. NOT based on who and how good, but by standards and norms. The norm is the QB releases the ball in 3 to 4 seconds and has pressure sooner or not very long after. APF default sliders are to weak for the D-line given the QB's way to much time to scan the field and make perfect throws with feet planted. Not often enough are the QB's in APF forced to get rid of the ball ASAP or scramble out the pocket throwing the ball away. Up until I started using these sliders I did not even know the button for throwing the ball away. I QUICKLY learned that just like in real life, if they send intense heat to dump to HB or roll out and get rid of it. NEVER before was that even a thought because EVERY blitzer gets picked up and the ones that don't react so slow that the ball is away before they get to the QB.

This is subjective though. I have played people who have blitzes so well setup you barely have 2 seconds to get the ball off. I have sent blitzes that give less than 3 seconds for the QB to throw. I have seen Reggie White all by himself put that kind of pressure on the Qb in this game. It does and can happen, its a matter of how often and how easy it should be thats in dispute.

If you are making pass rush judgments based purely off what you can or cant do against the CPU its gonna be skewed because the CPU in this game makes GREAT adjustments to the Blitz in large part because it knows when you are sending the house and makes the pre-snap blitz pickup adjustments. I will say that the angles taken by blitzers needs to be addressed BADLY, but LB's, DB's and DL's that have the pass rush bonus ability or sack master ability DO get to the QB quick in this game, especially if they are matched up one on one or find a open gap.

[LBzrule]

For me it depends on what you are talking about. Man coverage I don't have too many issue with it because man coverage requires that the person playing it have a great set of individual skills, which many of the cb's in the game do not have. Well hell there are only 10 CB's in the game but still if a guy does not have a great set of individual skills he is not going to be a lock down CB in man coverage (but there should be a way to scheme around that and that's with pressure but as I will mention below, too slow). So man is not the issue. Well there are only 2 issues and that is when guys just seem to not want to cover the WR. If you are running 2 deep man under or Prevent 3 man off, how is a WR getting 10 yards behind both the CB and the Safety? That's beyond me and it should never happen. But it has happened more than once in my playing.

Secondly, to me man requires that you do alot of stunting or you will pay for it. The blitz in the game is just too slow IMO. The way WR's burst (fade, arrow) out of their routes but then the way blitzing defenders take all the choppy steps = you gonna get burned playing man coverage because the pressure is not going to get there and it is not going to shield your CB from getting toasted by that route. And then you have guys sprinting backwards ala the old Madden games and heaving passes off of their back foot and when they do that the DB comes off of the WR. This is an actual play style now alot of guys are starting to do this BS and if the blitz was faster as it should be this would not be an issue. But it is an issue.

But anyways to me the real issue with this game is zone coverage. But let's be real here. If you can play man you can play zone and vice versa. What am I getting at? Even in zone the defender still has to play man. He has to match up man to man on the offensive player in his zone area and this IMO is where the game needs a lot of work. They do not match up with the man in their zone well.

All zone is supposed to do is allow defenders to have better leverage against certain routes because instead of turning and chasing the defender is simply mirroring the WR and looking right at the QB and anticipating. It also allows the defenders to focus on their keys and allows the secondary to commit to the run alot easier. But in this game they don't get that leverage against certain routes because they don't matchup man in the zone. To me this is the single biggest coverage problem outside of the slow blitz.

If you can count from the time the ball is snapped until the QB takes that last step. If no one has gotten through the line at that point that is a slow blitz. Anytime the QB can stand there after his last drop step then that's slow. Now of course there are parameters such as protection. But if a guy is not using more than five guys and I'm sending six that free rusher should be on the QB as he takes that last step. I'm sorry, you should have protected yourself better. And if it was that fast then the scenario I mentioned earlier about guys moving backwards and heaving off the back foot wouldn't be an issue.

[TombSong]

Quote:

If you can count from the time the ball is snapped until the QB takes that last step. If no one has gotten through the line at that point that is a slow blitz. Anytime the QB can stand there after his last drop step then that's slow. Now of course there are parameters such as protection. But if a guy is not using more than five guys and I'm sending six that free rusher should be on the QB as he takes that last step. I'm sorry, you should have protected yourself better. And if it was that fast then the scenario I mentioned earlier about guys moving backwards and heaving off the back foot wouldn't be an issue.

I agree with this to this point. How often should a 6 on 5 blitz result in a sack ?
Ill use the real Dallas Cowboys as an example. They have to be the worst blitzing team in the league. I have seen them send all out blitzes and they hardly ever end in a sack. (pisses me off) It can be 8 on 5 and Dallas seems to 90% of the time not get a sack.

Now Dallas aint the norm in those situation, but blitzes were the D outnumber the Offense dont always end in a sack. I will say the angles the blitzers take in this game are crazy, but I do see that the players with Pass rush bonus and sack master do take better angles 90% of the time and get to the Qb faster than others.

When you manually blitz you can get instant heat. I wish VC would send a dev here to discuss this with us all so that a happy medium can be worked out on how this part of the game should be refined.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

I agree with this to this point. How often should a 6 on 5 blitz result in a sack ? Ill use the real Dallas Cowboys as an example. They have to be the worst blitzing team in the league. I have seen them send all out blitzes and they hardly ever end in a sack. (pisses me off) It can be 8 on 5 and Dallas seems to 90% of the time not get a sack. Now Dallas aint the norm in those situation, but blitzes were the D outnumber the Offense dont always end in a sack. I will say the angles the blitzers take in this game are crazy, but I do see that the players with Pass rush bonus and sack master do take better angles 90% of the time and get to the Qb faster than others. When you manually blitz you can get instant heat. I wish VC would send a dev here to discuss this with us all so that a happy medium can be worked out on how this part of the game should be refined.

That's because they're blitzes are fairly unimaginative and leave receivers free. It's not an issue of getting there, it's an issue of covering. If you blitz, you should pay against a offense heavy team. I hear people complaining about a team consisting of Montana, Sharpe, Maynard, etc. all the time being dominant.......look at the Pats this year. If you blitz them, you pay.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

I agree with this to this point. How often should a 6 on 5 blitz result in a sack ? Ill use the real Dallas Cowboys as an example. They have to be the worst blitzing team in the league. I have seen them send all out blitzes and they hardly ever end in a sack. (pisses me off) It can be 8 on 5 and Dallas seems to 90% of the time not get a sack. Now Dallas aint the norm in those situation, but blitzes were the D outnumber the Offense dont always end in a sack. I will say the angles the blitzers take in this game are crazy, but I do see that the players with Pass rush bonus and sack master do take better angles 90% of the time and get to the Qb faster than others. When you manually blitz you can get instant heat. I wish VC would send a dev here to discuss this with us all so that a happy medium can be worked out on how this part of the game should be refined.

Now I agree in real life they don't, but I think in a video game they should because of the over exaggeration on the other side of the ball - there are not that many over and under thrown balls, there is no throwing at the feet of a WR just to avoid being sacked and because you can see the entire field which a real QB cannot, I think they should go ahead and allow it although I think it should depend on the abilities too. Hmmm. The abilities should come in here I guess. Maybe I should say a guy with Pass Rush Bonus and Sack master.

A guy with just run coverage shouldn't be a good blitzer. Although I don't know, I mean Harry Carson for instance, he knew how to get to the QB when it was called for him to do so, but in the game he does not have pass rush bonus or sack master. But he was not necessarily a great blitzing guy. He ended his career with only 8 sacks (although his first 3 years of playing Sacks were not recorded).

What I really want is more visual distinction between the abilities in every phase of the game even for blitzing. I'm just trying to think how they can get a guy like Carson to be less effective blitzing but not totally ineffective. I think this is where the speed can come in. He does not have pass rush bonus or sack master so Carson should take off slower and hit the hole slower, like they do now. But a guy with Pass Rush Bonus should take off faster find open holes faster and take the quickest route toward the QB. And finally, the Sack Master + Pass Rush bonus, I think this guy should take off as fast as the WR's take off on the Fade route. That would show his quick first step and his speed up the field on that speed rush.

But now when it comes to the run Carson should be head and shoulders above guys without Run Coverage + Run Reader. As soon as the QB opens left or right Carson should be scraping to that side and when the back gets the ball if he attacks the side that Carson has moved to, he fills quickly. But if he cuts back Carson has to swing his hips, deliver a jolt to the lineman attempting to prevent him from getting back on the cutback. He should be a beast run defender but a mediocre blitzer I guess. They just need to get it down visually I suppose.

[dunelly]

Sorry but we're not wrong.

I don't care if it's a legend DB or a 10 yr old playing in peewee. 90% of the time they drop easy Ints that can majorly change a game around.

Go to practice mode, call and route and just throw lobs after a 1 step dropback. Sure they'll make good plays, but 75% of the time they'll drop easy ints.

And dallas with 8 on 5 blitzing and never getting there? This is nothing but an exagerration. Maybe 6 on 5 and no one getting there. 8 on 5 they'll get there, but will leave a RB or WR wide open for a short gain, something they intended. Tombsong is making it sound like an 8 on 5 and no sack is a loss for the D. They get there, they just don't force the sack.

Defense in this game are not perfect AI wise. But the default sliders are even worse. Notice how there's more fumbles after the patch? And how Earl was tone down? VC is more wrong than not. They rush games that they never balance. Sliders always favor the offense. Especially since people are still complaining about the inability to score in THIS game. (lol)

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by dunelly

Defense in this game are not perfect AI wise. But the default sliders are even worse. Notice how there's more fumbles after the patch? And how Earl was tone down? VC is more wrong than not. They rush games that they never balance. Sliders always favor the offense. Especially since people are still complaining about the inability to score in THIS game. (lol)

It wasn't like people started playing the game for the first time and things were just totally out of whack - there was a decent period where a lot of us were enjoying the game w/o sliders. To revisit gameplay balance months later after everyone has acclimated themselves to the game, then blaming VC for the game not being balanced is ridiculous. Yes, some backs pre-patch were too powerful or elusive, or QBs too accurate. So VC tweaked a few things and made it better. We (members of sports gaming forums) usually end up tweaking sliders on just about every sports game - just a matter how long the honeymoon lasts, and how drastic the sliders have to be adjusted.

I'm sure VC will revisit the blitz logic and the defense next year. But I think they did a good job for their first time out after years out of the game. And I too agree the DB coverage isn't horrid as many try to contend.