The one thing missing from all football games: The Errant Pass, The Rushing Game

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by totalownership

While I do think the errant pass would solve alot with the game it must indeed be murder on the programmers to get it in right. You also gotta figure that they think people would moan from here to kingdom come if their QB's are off by the slightest even with feet set. Let me make it clear though that I have seen errant passes so it's not like I'm saying I'm seeing none. But I think there could be more.

I agree. While APF doesn't have ratings in the traditional sense, I would think it's possible to further differentiate skills between players more by having the ratings more dramatically reflect differences. There's an obvious difference in QB abilities just between starters and backups - backups definitely throw more errant passes than the starters. If they tweak the Arm Strength and Accuracy ratings (that lie underneath the abilities system) to have more dramatic effect on a starter's abilities, then I'd think you'd have more passes short or overthrown. Their system already accounts somewhat for QB drops and WR patterns, so I'd think tweaking would go a ways towards improving realism in the passing game.

And I agree w/LBz's point about the mid-air collisions. I'd like to see it just to deepen the overall experience; right now they really don't have hits that upend players as you might see in a real game. Receivers jump for passes now but it would be nice if they could get hit while in the air, instead of just "tackled" in the air. Adding the ability to truly take an offensive player's legs out from under them would be a nice addition

[jfsolo]

Quote: Originally Posted by totalownership

It's good to see healthy debate on the subject. Very articulate responses both ways here. I will repeat what was said before. While I do think the errant pass would solve alot with the game it must indeed be murder on the programmers to get it in right. You also gotta figure that they think people would moan from here to kingdom come if their QB's are off by the slightest even with feet set. Let me make it clear though that I have seen errant passes so it's not like I'm saying I'm seeing none. But I think there could be more.

I think you're 100% correct. I honestly don't think that this particular issue is a case of programming difficultly, but design decision. Its the dreaded "fun factor" coda rearing its ugly head.

In a real game, this sequence happens several times a game: First down-2 yard run, Second down- QB has time, but throws too low to his TE and the ball hits the turf before he can scoop it up. Third down - Defense gets some heat on the QB, he throws one to the sideline that his WR gets a finger on but it sails out of bounds. Fourth down- Punt

A lot of video game players wouldn't be satisfied with that sequence even if they were on the defensive side of the ball, There was no sack, or pick, or pass break up, or, anything that showed off any great stick skills, they didn't really "do" anything.

For sports games to really become better simulations, the mundane must become more commonplace.

[Cardot]

Great post jfsolo....I agree 100%.

[Mason81Ballin!!!]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfsolo

I think you're 100% correct. I honestly don't think that this particular issue is a case of programming difficultly, but design decision. Its the dreaded "fun factor" coda rearing its ugly head. In a real game, this sequence happens several times a game: First down-2 yard run, Second down- QB has time, but throws too low to his TE and the ball hits the turf before he can scoop it up. Third down - Defense gets some heat on the QB, he throws one to the sideline that his WR gets a finger on but it sails out of bounds. Fourth down- Punt A lot of video game players wouldn't be satisfied with that sequence even if they were on the defensive side of the ball, There was no sack, or pick, or pass break up, or, anything that showed off any great stick skills, they didn't really "do" anything. For sports games to really become better simulations, the mundane must become more commonplace.

Now Thats a great series for us football heads haha (defensively)

[totalownership]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfsolo

I think you're 100% correct. I honestly don't think that this particular issue is a case of programming difficultly, but design decision. Its the dreaded "fun factor" coda rearing its ugly head.

Yeah, I'll have to agree. You guys know what this all boils down to? What I've been saying, and others, all along. We need a game/lobby/difficulty level of our own.
I personally think all the tools to make the game we're looking for is already there. The animations are certainly there. The basic gameplay is already there. They are just a few ability tweaks and AI tweaks away from having that game.

Some of us would like to see "outstanding plays" maybe twice a game. Not every other down. I would like to be amazed when I do see them and not have them be "yawn" events.

[murry]

Quote: Originally Posted by catcatch22

That is the problem. Errant passes are not ALWAYS due to pressure. You see guys like Farve and Jeff George who with their rocket arms can at times be very inaccurate even without a rush. These are not robots. The 3 main reasons for errant passes besides rush (which is not the main factor) is.... 1. Option routes - there are no option routes in the game. With option routes depedent on what type of zone coverage the defense is running, the QB and receiver try to decipher that coverage and many times with teammates that have not played together and are maybe not in sync you will see an errant pass because the receiver and the QB read the defense wrong and the receiver goes one way while the pass goes the other. 2. Timing routes - Because of the wide catch radius of the receivers in this game and the inablity for DB's to to play a smother defense on the pass cause of lack of animations, timing on a timing route is really unneccesary. What you will see on gameday alot is a bump from the defender is sometimes enough to throw off the timing between a receiver and the QB. Not to mention an Option Timing Route which can also lead to many an errant passes. 3. Plain old user error - In this game there is Maximum passing but its rare when you are forced to use it. The passes go automatically where they have to go most of the time. The maximum passing is helped extremely by the wide catch radius of the receivers yet again and without enough animations where the Defender can drap a Receiver and make the play, the receiver wins out most of the time. On gameday you will see QB's fit balls into very tight spots, by altering the route of the receiver by his throw either to protect the receiver or to lead him away from a defender. At times this can be underthrown balls, balls behind the receiver and leading him too far. This aspect just is not in the game enough with all the QB's not just non GOLD and SILVER. As for the throwing meter. I would implement it this way. When you throw the ball with guys that have rocket arms you should have a very fast meter that makes almost all your throws hard if you do not keep it in check by quickly releasing the button before the meter gets to full and you will end up throwing a lazer into your receivers face mask and gets stuck in there, LOL. Espcially on short passes. For the accurate QB's that have weaker arms what I would like to see is they have a much, much, much slower meter. Making it very difficult to throw bombs with them but the short passes are very accurate. However if you do not get enough of the meter full, the ball comes out a floaty duck especially on long passes. Then you got the guys who have the best of both worlds, power and accuracy. With those guys they don't have the overly sensitve meter nor the slow to fill up meter. So they are baby bear "just right" LOL.

Great post. The only thing I could think to add would be some form of a "vision cone", to force your QB to go through his read progressions.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by murry

Great post. The only thing I could think to add would be some form of a "vision cone", to force your QB to go through his read progressions.

I really don't like the idea of a vision cone for this game. While I can appreciate EA's attempt for trying to inject realism to the passing game, part of it was to undo a chronic problem w/Madden's passing game (imo) - the ability to throw/complete passes at any point in a route irregardless of a receiver's pattern and the QB's drop. You really don't have that exact problem in APF, so I would think forcing the user to manually scan the field when he's more or less already doing that visually is an unnecessary hinderance. There's also the issue of how pump faking is done in the game (double tapping), which I'm not a big fan of either. But I really don't like how the cone is implemented in Madden.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

I really don't like the idea of a vision cone for this game. While I can appreciate EA's attempt for trying to inject realism to the passing game, part of it was to undo a chronic problem w/Madden's passing game (imo) - the ability to throw/complete passes at any point in a route irregardless of a receiver's pattern and the QB's drop. You really don't have that exact problem in APF, so I would think forcing the user to manually scan the field when he's more or less already doing that visually is an unnecessary hinderance. There's also the issue of how pump faking is done in the game (double tapping), which I'm not a big fan of either. But I really don't like how the cone is implemented in Madden.

Definitely no vision cone. I would love right stick passing though - a revamped version of what used to be in TV Sports Football. The R Stick could mimic the QB's arm movement. Move the stick back for the QB to move his arm back and push it forward to throw it. You should have a meter of some sort for power.