2k Defense from 2k3 to 2k8 - Design Decisions

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by dunelly

The same programming is in both 2k5 and 2k8. The only difference you perceive in "technique" is the lack of transitional animations in 2k5 by the corners. Notice that last video where baxter ran the exact route the WR was running, the same thing that happens in 2k8. But instead of him maybe slowing down due to an animation, he directly transfers to full speed route running mode.

This might be true, but I still prefer the technique emphasized in 2k4 and 5 that is absent from 2k8. Technique = positioning that 2k8 does not give. And one thing these games have taught us is positioning is very important.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by grunt

Reading your post makes me pessimistic about all football games and make me want to pickup 2k3 and 2k4,

Actually my goal was not for it to lead to pessimism. I think it shows that somebody was on the right track and all they needed to do was extend what they already had, program more animations that emphasized techniques. I think the abilities system should get deep with the type of animations that people see with respect to different players, that is if they can tie animations to abilities; and biggest of all IF they get another chance

[Rocky]

The fade route is a broken pattern, I think it's that simple.

The out route, the slant route, pretty much all man to man routes are tied into the abilities system, or at least that's my observation. For instance, if I have a bronze who is a possession receiver(good at running short routes), he may beat that silver or even gold CB occasionally on the quick slant or quick out patterns. I've been on the other side of that and it's frustrating. Generic CB's are going to play sloppy coverage irregardless of whose he covering. On legend, if I have a bronze on bronze in man coverage than the out pattern favors the offensive player 60-40.

One thing that needs to be corrected is that WR's don't run the out route that's in the game for the reasons you stated, LBz. They run a speed out, or a curved out and that's tough to cover in 3, 4 and 6 coverage and against good route runners its a bitch in man coverage as well.

[dunelly]

corners don't recognize the outs, they stop covering after they reach a certain point. This certainly just makes it 10x worse

[kcxiv]

Quote: Originally Posted by dunelly

corners don't recognize the outs, they stop covering after they reach a certain point. This certainly just makes it 10x worse

In zone they do. They are supposed to stay in there zone. If you give the QB all day to throw, your going to get burned on zone play. Thats why i always try to have at least a Silver legend on the Dline. Imo they are hell of worth it. I switch up my online teams a ton and i use usually 2 legends on the Dline. Makes a huge difference.

Another thing i learned about the fade. You will get burned when they throw a fade in man coverage to the side of the field that has the most room. You manually control the safety and you will stop that. I know its broken, but its still a pretty good game of football. Never had a better time of playing any football game.

We have to see if they continue the series. I know alot of us Mods over at the 2k forums are pressing for another game and giving new idea's on what direction to go. Valdarez i know has a pretty damn good list of what needs to be fixed. I wish i could do the APF section, but i am the NBA section.

[TombSong]

My observations about the fade route is its working as intended.

If you have a speed burner WR this route maximises his ability and MAKES the defense have to account for it by either:

1. Choosing CB's that have speed/coverage abilitys that allow them to stay on a Speed wr no matter how they are lined up.
2. If you have a generic CB you will have to make a decision to play deep zones against Speed WR's you are matched up with, or if playing man, make the pre snap adjustment of moving the CB to play off the WR thus making it more difficult for the Speed WR to blow by the CB, giving the Dline more time to get to the QB before he can make the throw.

The fade is the offense's go to weapon to use against a defensive coordinator that wont adjust to it, and a counter to a team that likes to Blitz alot.

[jmood88]

Wow I completely forgot that 2k3 had those pre snap animations.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

My observations about the fade route is its working as intended. If you have a speed burner WR this route maximises his ability and MAKES the defense have to account for it by either: 1. Choosing CB's that have speed/coverage abilitys that allow them to stay on a Speed wr no matter how they are lined up. 2. If you have a generic CB you will have to make a decision to play deep zones against Speed WR's you are matched up with, or if playing man, make the pre snap adjustment of moving the CB to play off the WR thus making it more difficult for the Speed WR to blow by the CB, giving the Dline more time to get to the QB before he can make the throw. The fade is the offense's go to weapon to use against a defensive coordinator that wont adjust to it, and a counter to a team that likes to Blitz alot.

I think it is a little bit of both that is the problem: the CB logic and the route itself. The CB doesn't even recognize the route. His first move in man against the fade is to drop his head and lose the WR. And that's no matter who the CB is. They all follow that same routine. That is a problem. One that was not there in 2k4 and 2k5. At leas in those games they RECOGNIZED the route as the video showed the CB playing head up keyed and stepped with the WR. In 2k8 thaty don't do that from head up. They pause like the Middle linebackers do, drop their head and the WR is gone. They don't key on anything. The only way to stop it is to play outside because doing so ensures that the WR will collision with the CB. It's not that the CB recognizes the route still. He's just in a spot to where the WR has no choice but to run into him. The fade should work very well against inside man press coverage, which it does in this game.

However, it should not be so money against off coverage at around 5 yards off and more head up, inside or outside. It should not be so money against press head up coverage, depending on the CB. It should have greater success against press coverage shaded to the inside.

Secondly, you don't need a speed WR to take advantage of it, the route gives the WR the speed. You can even run it with TE's like Mezz and Green and toast CB's.