Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

[RogueHominid]

Watching the Colts-Chargers game this evening brought an interesting issue up for me regarding sim gameplay. Peyton Manning caught the Chargers in a substitution package, went no huddle (in the middle of the 3rd quarter), caught the Chargers unprepared, and threw a 62 yard touchdown to Reggie Wayne.

For me, this sort of play calls into question the theory that running no huddle except for late game situations is cheeze and that hiking the ball before your opponent has fully settled in and done all his adjustments and such is cheeze. I personally allow my opponents to set their adjustments within reason, and I allow them to finish their audibles (for example, if they're in zone and audible to man, I'll let everyone get set). However, seeing this kind of play irl makes me wonder if it should be considered cheeze to do otherwise.

There are certain plays I call just hoping I'll catch my opponent in a zone. If I do, I know what my options will be. Should I have to wait for them to adjust when teams in real life don't?

Thoughts?

(PS: Saw a TE reverse in the Colts game, too, lol).

[sleepychicken]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

Arizona did it earlier as well. I never understood the complaint from day one. Both sides tire when it's done. If you matched up on personnel on the original play, then you're still matched up. If you came into the game without audibles, that's your own fault. It's more of an advantage in real life than on the game since we as gamers don't do nearly the substituting they do in real life (nearly every play).

I haven't played this game in months, and have just gotten a new gaming system, so maybe someone found some magical way for no huddle to be a major advantage for the offense. It wasn't when the game released.

I rarely ever did it. I had it done to me, and usually was happy to see it. I usually felt I had the advantage with my audibles set up. If I was dumb enough to come out in a 4-3 when they had called a 4wr set on the original play, I can't blame them for doing it for the personnel mis-match. That's what timeouts are for.

Not trying to start a debate, but I never did see no huddle as cheese. As it only and offensive advantage if you aren't prepared on defense.

I can't remember now what the arguments were against it back then, but I'm sure they'll surface soon.

Again, I didn't even use it. I never had an offense built for it. All I would do is tire out my crappy receivers if I tried. So, I don't really care that "sim" leagues outlaw it as anything but a 2 minute drill thing, but I do think it's silly.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

And what about those plays where you catch the defense out of position? That's exactly what Manning did, and he wasn't "sim" about it at all, lol. He saw his mismatch and took it.

[LingeringRegime]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

And what about those plays where you catch the defense out of position? That's exactly what Manning did, and he wasn't "sim" about it at all, lol. He saw his mismatch and took it.

Yeah, I think there is a very fine line of being part of the "Sim Swat Team." Many times it can turn into a cop out for not being able to win a game. Cheese for me is very limited...

1. Quarterback "Vicking"
2. Fake Punts
3. Going for it on 4th Down when it is especially stupid to do so. (Deep in your own territory, or 4th and 10+)
4. "Stupid" Two Point Conversions.

*By the way, wow great game between Chargers and Colts right now. 2:00 warning and Colts punting out of their own end zone. Should be a classic finish.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

In real life, I'm in the "offense doesn't wait for defense" school of thought. You do whatever you can to create an opportunity and then you take advantage of it. The videogame environment is totally different beast to me though. Instead of instincts, knowing the situation, and making quick decisions, your defenders are often at the mercy of you pressing buttons quickly enough to set matchups that they would otherwise miss. In real life you don't have to worry about falling on your face when you decide guard a certain receiver.

I don't think mixing in no-huddle plays or snapping before their players are set is cheese. I've competed against guys who did this in a way that was smart, and I didn't complain a bit. However, if that's the bulk of your offense I definitely feel it has Velveta written all over it. I don't really enjoy playing games like that.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

In real life, I'm in the "offense doesn't wait for defense" school of thought. You do whatever you can to create an opportunity and then you take advantage of it. The videogame environment is totally different beast to me though. Instead of instincts, knowing the situation, and making quick decisions, your defenders are often at the mercy of you pressing buttons quickly enough to set matchups that they would otherwise miss. In real life you don't have to worry about falling on your face when you decide guard a certain receiver.

I don't think mixing in no-huddle plays or snapping before their players are set is cheese. I've competed against guys who did this in a way that was smart, and I didn't complain a bit. However, if that's the bulk of your offense I definitely feel it has Velveta written all over it. I don't really enjoy playing games like that.

Well, you know it's not how I play, but I'm curious to hear what others think. Some dude in our league will snap on you mid-audible; I take it in stride but don't do it myself.

BTW, I'm waitin' for you as soon as this crazy Colts game is over, which may be soon. The twist of a facemask may be it.

[LBzrule]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

It's completely different IMO. Notice with the Colts the defenders were not even aware. It's not like if you do that in a video game the defenders will not be any more or less aware as they are on other plays. The only one that is not aware will you and the guy you are controlling. Secondly, Manning SAW something. Most times guys in video games do not SEE ANYTHING. They just hike it and chuck it and the game rewards them.

[fldash]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

Sprinkled in throughout a game is definitely not 'cheese' if you ask me. It's part of football.

[C-Bus]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

Honestly, I never really thought about the quick snap. I only use no huddle occasionally, especially if my offense is struggling or I have caught the opponent in a defense where I have an advantage; for example running the ball vs. dime defense or passing vs. a 4-3; the defense can and should call a timeout.

But quick snapping is really something I never thought about. Usually I am making presnap adjustments myself, motioning, or hot routes, setting protections. But when I don't have adjustments to make I never even thought to sit and wait for people to make adjustments. In fact I hate it when people manually move their players into various gaps or manually bring a safety down into the box. Its not cheese but if you are manually going to move players around I am definitely not waiting for you to move all your players around.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

Some good discussion here.

To your point, LBz, I do think it's possible to "see" something in the defense and want to sieze on it. A couple of examples: there are certain formations that create immediate matchup problems in man coverage. If I see that, should I be penalized for taking advantage of that? Also, there are situations where a safety will come out and walk down into the box when I have a route attacking their normal position. Many times players will opt out of that walk down and try to move their guy back--should I have to wait for that if I see an advantageous alignment?

And to your point, C-Bus, I generally wait long enough for an adjustment or two, but I do not feel beholden to opponents who like to do 5 or 6 hot routes per play. If you can get them off before I snap it, more power to you, but if you can't, I'm not sure why I should have to wait for all the shenanigans.

[kcxiv]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

Manning does it very very very very rarely. in APF, you can do it multiple times a game. Its not that Manning doesnt want to do it, its that he cant.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

Manning does it very very very very rarely. in APF, you can do it multiple times a game. Its not that Manning doesnt want to do it, its that he cant.

Good point; what Manning saw on that particular occasion was very rare irl and nonexistent in APF. But it does raise a question of principle, I believe.

[LBzrule]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

Some good discussion here.

To your point, LBz, I do think it's possible to "see" something in the defense and want to sieze on it. A couple of examples: there are certain formations that create immediate matchup problems in man coverage. If I see that, should I be penalized for taking advantage of that? Also, there are situations where a safety will come out and walk down into the box when I have a route attacking their normal position. Many times players will opt out of that walk down and try to move their guy back--should I have to wait for that if I see an advantageous alignment?

And to your point, C-Bus, I generally wait long enough for an adjustment or two, but I do not feel beholden to opponents who like to do 5 or 6 hot routes per play. If you can get them off before I snap it, more power to you, but if you can't, I'm not sure why I should have to wait for all the shenanigans.

True, that stuff you see, but when I say Manning saw something I'm not referring to IN the defense. He saw them running on and off the field. You are not going to see that in a video game and that's typically what he uses it for. Secondly guys who quick snap online generally don't see anything. They just get ta snappin. The guys I have played online just hurry their O to the line without even seeing the defense an snaps the ball to run a toss play or some other play like the flea flicker.

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

I think the problem that I see is that these are two distinctly different settings.

One is real life, with real people watching what you're doing and everyone being in touch with each other... But happening to get caught out of position once. They'll be watching for it again, and you know it's not going to happen.

One is a video game in which players don't really think but are programed to act a certain way, and you're able to take complete advantage of that. Something worked last time that was tricky? Chances are it'll work again because of how the AI is programed to react. Even as the controller of that team, there are things you just can't do because the AI will automatically take its own little actions.

For example - playing against the CPU, I've found that if I choose certain run plays, it almost doesn't matter what defense they've picked - I'm going 10-15 for sure, and maybe further. However, it's just a completely ordinary play, but it seems the AI can't react properly to it.

I've started to give up worrying about what would happen in real life, and what's acceptable - and just started looking at these things as games where you have to learn how they work, and how they play and not worry about what a player or team would do in real life; the AI is just not there to make it worth it, yet.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Quick Snapping, No Huddle, and the Colts

Nice point, Timmay.