They Could Have Milked All Pro Football

[rman]

I know the game did not sell very well, let's face it the NFL license hurt them. But also not having a franchise mode, roster editor and the tools to customize the game, hurt them just as bad if not worse I think. I believe that giving so little for a full price $60 was not a good idea. Some say that MS controls the price structure for games. I do not really know, but I have seen games for less then $60.

With games like GTA releasing DLC with new campaigns based on the same game. Why cannot Take 2/2K Sports re-release All Pro Football for download @ $20 on PSN and Xbox Live. Release a team builder/roster editor/uniform creator module for $10. Release a free roster share feature for the game. They could make more money by releasing a graphics/animation update package for $10-$20, how about a stadium editor/builder for another $10...But best of all how about an all out franchise module for $20, maybe online franchise with a fair subscription fee?

I just think that even if 2k had a chance to get the NFL license today, would they do it? I mean it cost a lot of cash to have the license. They canceled College Hoops because the license was too much and the game never sold well. The same can be said about NFL 2K, the franchise did not sell well at all until 2K5 and ONLY because of the $20 price tag. Yes it is a very good game, but the price tag is what increased the sales drastically.

I much rather have a sports game being updated through out the year rather then once a year. This option gives us a choice to buy what we want, the possibilities are endless with download content and it's easier on the wallet shelling out cash a little at a time then all at once for new game (roster/graphic/game feature update) and then having to wait for product updates (patches).

Sorry if this has already been discussed, as you can see I do not post much.

[TheWatcher]

They made a stripped-down game with poor conceptual design, charged $60 for it, promoted it/marketed it poorly... came out and made public statemnets of how disappointed they were that the sales weren't as great as they'd hoped... then abandoned it after just one season leaving on the table a product that had a large chunk of its budget chewed up by individual licensing.

They completely lost it over there.

We just have to hope that indies pops up and start pushing the market. The key is finding a point where the game can be high quality, developed for a low cost, and produced/marketed/promoted at a cost low enough for the company to still turn a large enough profit to keep the cycle going. But producing a football game is so difficult. It's not like making any other type of game, and the resources required are just more than most indies can handle.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

They made a stripped-down game with poor conceptual design, charged $60 for it, promoted it/marketed it poorly... came out and made public statemnets of how disappointed they were that the sales weren't as great as they'd hoped... then abandoned it after just one season leaving on the table a product that had a large chunk of its budget chewed up by individual licensing.

I disagree. I think the concept of the game was brilliant. DAMN BRILLIANT. It added a strategy element to online play that was missing from any other football game before and since. In addition to that, having legends in the game was a unique selling point.....and I shudder to think what sales would have been like if you charged a completely generic game for $60. Simply put, there is an extremely small amount of people who want to buy a pro football game without the NFL license. Fewer people than we on message boards think. I also thought the marketing was relatively good. People WERE talking about this game.

Two things were killers though. The expectations and the price. Charging 60 bucks for the game was a huge mistake. I thought a $25 to $35 dollar price tag would've been perfect. Let's face it, to the vast majority of gamers, this wasn't going to take Madden's place as the main game. It was going to be an addition for those who loved the 2K Football series. But $60 dollars was too much considering the amount that was actually in the game. Interestingly enough, there was much more sastifaction when people discovered this game late with a significantly reduced price. I talk to friends and my players who have discovered this game for 10 to 15 dollars and simply love it and love the design of it.

The expectations were unreal as well. There were some of us who wanted just a good football alternative to Madden (remember Madden 06-09 was terrible). APF gave us that (and it's still unrivaled in football fundamentals, animations, and physics). It was a much, much improved version of NFL2K5 gameplay wise, with a unique twist. Another segment of gamers expected a NFL-lite league with the same features that you had in NFL2K5. VC themselves told you this wasn't that type of game. They wanted to go a different direction and some just couldn't accept it. To those who just wanted a good solid footballl title, we more than got our money's worth off of it.

[matthewk]

I wish they would do something to follow up on 2k8 before their licensing rights to all these players expires (or has it walready?).

I came into the game late. It was only just this year that I finally got a PS3 (never had a 360). This was one of the first games I piocked up, and I got it for $7. Great deal at that price, but I can see why people would have been angry at paying $50-$60 for it.

The legends are a great idea, I only wish there were more of them. The abilities was a nice change, and got away from the endless ratings categories. Where APF falls flat for me is that they teased customization, but then limited it in ways I just do not understand. Why only 20 CAPS? Why only 8 Created teams that you can only use one at a time in a season? Why limit the CAP so that you can't even give guys long hair or facial hair?

I can see the problems with having a franchise mode. Who do you draft? What happens to the existing legends? What ages do you make them? The rest I just don't get. Instead of really good, this game would have been great with a few additional features and players. I would pay today for some new players and features.

What I wanted was customization similar to what Front Page Sports football gave us all those years ago.

[jyoung]

It look like the people behind this game have moved to Quick Hit Football on the PC.

It uses many of the same legends from APF and has a few new ones included, too.

It's definitely a shame that 2K didn't provide any kind of DLC for All Pro Football. I think most of the people playing it would've bought additional player packs or new modes of play, especially multi-season/franchise.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

I disagree. I think the concept of the game was brilliant. DAMN BRILLIANT. It added a strategy element to online play that was missing from any other football game before and since.

I'm talking about the design of the league and all its branches and user control of it, not game strategy. I only recall seeing the league logo in the startup screen and then in the playoffs (the Championship game I believe), and absolutely no mention of it at all during the season.

Then on top of that, you get to the big game and it's called... "The Championship"? Wow, that gets me pumped...

Then there are the designs of the stadiums... I'm not even going to argue against just how crazy it was, but rather center on the fact that they actually wasted precious polygons on it, yet left that horrendous grass, lol.

Then let's talk about the team uniforms. I have never in my life seen uniforms that ugly and uncoordinated. Those were flat out abominations against all that is holy. I mean, they had to think that it was a disadvantage to have to use unlicensed teams as it is, but they had to then make those teams look like that? And worse, you couldn't edit them during the season, only your team could be edited which meant that you had to sit through that visual torture for 16 games plus the playoffs. That wasn't brilliant, lol.

Then there are the editing restrictions. You only got 8 team slots. You could only create so many players (and not enough).

You couldn't edit any of the generics. The generics switched teams like every time you played.

You'd have the same players on both teams many times, including Legends, lol. That's not brillant. And the funny part is, they told us in a chat that this wouldn't happen in the final game, and that when we saw it in the vids it was a problem with an early build they'd fixed a long time ago.

Coaches switch teams like every game, and you can neither edit or control it.

The team names were mostly terrible. The logo choices were terrible too, and the fact that you couldn't create or put in your own was an awful idea. Of course, much of that was done purposely as one 2K Developer said that they didn't want the editing to be toooo deep because they didn't want to upset the NFL. Well, they may not have upset the NFL, but they sure upset quite a few of their fans.

Picking players and constructing your team was fine, but there were many parts of the concept design that just didn't cut it. With a game like this, they couldn't afford to make as many mistakes as they did with the design, but they knowingly walked right into it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

I also thought the marketing was relatively good. People WERE talking about this game.

Let's talk about the marketing/promotion issues...

One of the most talked about things concerning APF was how bad the marketing/promotion was. I can remember reading several columns were writers were dumbfounded as to why they released so little information so close to the release of the game, and why they were shutting news outlets out. Fans followed suit there too and there were a number of places on the net (OS included) where you'd find that the hot topic about APF had become how poorly they were pushing the game rather than the game itself.

Then you had a very public situation that took place where they began threatening websites for putting up game pics "too early", mind you the game was about a month and a half away. What did they want? To release pics on launch day? LOL.

Then the timing of their actual campaign was a bit late (which they themselves admitted but gave some kind of convoluted excuse for). And when it hit, for the most part people liked the commercials, but they ran scarcely on TV to the point that some fans were taping them (until 2K started posting them all on their site).

No coincidence that after this total debacle, a number of people in charge of it were fired including the PR man Anthony Chau who built up a reputation of doing nothing, and if that's the case then man did he live up to it with APF, lol. I won't even go into the well known blowup that took place concerning him and a 2K forum member... that was bananas!

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

Two things were killers though. The expectations and the price. Charging 60 bucks for the game was a huge mistake. I thought a $25 to $35 dollar price tag would've been perfect. The expectations were unreal as well. There were some of us who wanted just a good football alternative to Madden (remember Madden 06-09 was terrible). APF gave us that (and it's still unrivaled in football fundamentals, animations, and physics). It was a much, much improved version of NFL2K5 gameplay wise, with a unique twist. Another segment of gamers expected a NFL-lite league with the same features that you had in NFL2K5. VC themselves told you this wasn't that type of game. They wanted to go a different direction and some just couldn't accept it. To those who just wanted a good solid footballl title, we more than got our money's worth off of it.

I agree that expectations were a big roadblock, but I think we view that conclusion differently. See, I think 2K was so intent on not making an "NFL-Lite" that they went overboard and created a lite product overall.

I think a lot of people expected the game to give us a feel like we were part of a real (but fictional of course) pro football league, but they totally failed on this. They didn't even try. Instead, we never felt like we were part of a league. It felt like we were just playing random games with GAWD-awful looking teams with Senior citizen players popping Centrum Silver during timeouts, and fake nobodies who happened to have a body-double on the opposing team, all on top of puke grass in low-res stadiums with huge structures that move when you score a TD...

If they had at least kept the presentation on par with their previous games, had better team designs (or just let me edit them all myself), and made a league presence and one that could actually be taken seriously, the game would've been saved for me.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by matthewk

I can see the problems with having a franchise mode. Who do you draft? What happens to the existing legends? What ages do you make them? The rest I just don't get. Instead of really good, this game would have been great with a few additional features and players. I would pay today for some new players and features.

I remember 2K mentioning this issue as well. Here is what I said during a chat... "make all the legends start off at their rookie ages, and let them age through the years."

I'm not a franchise guy. It just doesn't interest me much, so the lack of franchise had no bearing on my feelings about the game, but I understand the franchise groups disappointment there. I think the lack of franchise had more to do with the lack of time and resource given to the game's development rather than them having trouble figuring out how to make it work with the legends. I would imagine that they'd thought of my simple idea before, but programming it just wasn't in the cards for the project.

Quote: Originally Posted by matthewk

What I wanted was customization similar to what Front Page Sports football gave us all those years ago.

Or Maximum Football. I agree, this would've been the ultimate. This is what a lot of people who were pro-customization were expecting from the game, and man did we get let down... and all because they thought they still had a chance at the NFL license which was set to expire not long from then, and they thought having that sort of customization would've hurt their chances.

In a way, you have to respect their guts for making the game, but then on the other hand you have to be a bit angry that they made a decision that basically gambled our football gaming future on the prospect of something that was nothing more than a pipedream (getting the NFL license again).

[Thirty3 Degrees]

The crazy thing is, I've probably put in around 300 hours into the game, so have the die hards that still play it.

I can say, I defiantly got my moneys worth. It sucks that the game didn't sell well. What I wouldn't do to be playing 2k10 right now...