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Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

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Old 05-13-2019, 05:43 PM   #9
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Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

I think a remastered version with some updates formations and tweaks to some of the abilities/mechanics would give us the best playing football game on the market.

I don’t believe franchise is a selling point and I don’t believe APF failed because there was no franchise mode. APF failed because the average virtual football consumer is not fanatical enough to know who most of the legends were, nor were they knowledgeable enough about the intricacies of the sport to appreciate how strategically deep the game was.

Madden does a spectacular job of making things easy and accessible. The skill gap in madden is not as wide as it was in 2K.

For me what made All Pro so interesting was the fact you could contrast different eras of football against each other. Some of the “wing T” style formations were interesting to fool around with. It was fun building an offense around a fullback who was the primary ball carrier. It was fun creating offensive schemes that employed very skilled lineman to open up the offense. Giving a gold guard speed burner, bulldozer, leadership, etc.; and watching him destroy the olb/nickel back/ safety after pulling. Then taking it a step further and building an offensive scheme around that.

More formations, more polish, and top of the line graphics. Put that out without worrying about contracting a bunch of former players and see how that sells. Use the same engine.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:38 PM   #10
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Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

No franchise, no purchase. No modes (franchise or otherwise) to keep people interested for an extend period is largely a non-starter in sports games. APF is the prime example of that mistake.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:34 PM   #11
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Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mestevo
No franchise, no purchase. No modes (franchise or otherwise) to keep people interested for an extend period is largely a non-starter in sports games. APF is the prime example of that mistake.
I agree
Where the gameplay is good enough to bring me back time to time, but the lack of depth loses my interest quick. The issue with APF was the approach they went with. It felt like a "Year One" of a new football game. Where if it was a startup company, they would have satisfied with the product and probably would continued on. But 2k had high expectations, so with low sales, they pulled plug. I get the legend allure. But to the casual fan, they only know hand full of the legends. And I really don't know how they would expanded from 2k8 anyway. Besides, signing more legends, that approach was too limited. Madden is a juggernaut as far as sales, it always outsold competitors, so they can't try to based success off of sales. 2k approach with 2k8 was pretty on how well they sold. But issue was they pretty much took a step back from 2k5 and basically resetted. They should have learned from 2k4 when they did horrible in sales because they rebranded themselves as ESPN Football. So they pretty much doomed themselves from the start.

The news with the NCAA today examining whether to change the rules to allow players to be compensated for their likenes, could be huge news for a possible return of a college sports game. That was one of the main hurdles. So if it happens, I can see a college sports game coming back. If they can be compensated for the name and likeness, I can see them being able to have real names and pictures. It would be easier to promote a college sports game when you can actually use a current popular NCAA player on the cover. Imagine being able to promote Trevor Lawrence or Tua now, rather than when he is headed to pros.

So if the NCAA leads to something, that could be an option for 2k to approach
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:41 AM   #12
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Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mestevo
No franchise, no purchase. No modes (franchise or otherwise) to keep people interested for an extend period is largely a non-starter in sports games. APF is the prime example of that mistake.
I completely disagree with this perception.

Madden’s franchise mode does not drive sales. NBA 2K’s immersive “franchise” mode is objectively better than Madden’s, and it may be the least profitable part of their product.

some form of ultimate/my team, a different online multiplayer experience (team play), or any other type of innovative game experience will drive sales.

The franchise die hard demographic is a small one and holds little to no relevance when considering the environment we live in today. EA has proven this by consistently, year after year, neglecting that portion of their product while they still make money hand over fist with other game modes.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:51 AM   #13
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Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

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Originally Posted by Thunderhorse
I completely disagree with this perception.

Madden’s franchise mode does not drive sales. NBA 2K’s immersive “franchise” mode is objectively better than Madden’s, and it may be the least profitable part of their product.

some form of ultimate/my team, a different online multiplayer experience (team play), or any other type of innovative game experience will drive sales.

The franchise die hard demographic is a small one and holds little to no relevance when considering the environment we live in today. EA has proven this by consistently, year after year, neglecting that portion of their product while they still make money hand over fist with other game modes.
You 'disagree completely' by then agreeing with me. When I'm getting weekly announcing and roster updates it tells me EA finds value in franchise customers, they are making metrics-backed decisions to continue to develop the mode (albeit at a pace few would agree with) and support it throughout the season. To discount it entirely is silly (as are many absolutes in discussions like this), almost as silly as saying APF would be successful if it was just remastered and re-released - which is what my reply is based off of. It would likely fail again for all the same reasons - it doesn't meet expectations or provide the feedback loops people want in football games.

I think it's kind of funny to suggest they need to innovate by letting you do non-football things. Personally I think this is why non-licensed games typically fail, they try too hard to do something that everyone is looking to do. If team play was an innovation people wanted, it would probably still be in Madden in some form. Your prior post said people don't care about players, and now you suggest an ultimate team mode... how much will they care about generic players?

You have to start with a football game. You build on the football game, and you build your feedback loop around what people want to do in a football game. If you take all the traditional things away then what do you have left? At that point why even 11 on 11? Why even have names or rosters? If people don't care about players, maybe they won't care about plays either? Dumb down your customer so far and you end up w/ a 10 yard fight remake, but at least you can press a button to get a couple extra yards.

With no depth you have no game. People don't watch Patrick Mahomes throw an 80 yard bomb and then wish there was a game that lets them setup generic chess pieces to scheme for/against such a play (and man... if you think that customer is more lucrative than franchise players, I'm not sure what to say). To reiterate the point of my post (as you honed in on only franchise) - with no longevity a game like APF is dead on arrival, and APF remains the biggest example of this.

Last edited by mestevo; 05-16-2019 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:23 AM   #14
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Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

if 2k adds a franchise mode to APF, make it an all fictional league. then yes.
it would probably still be a niche product, but it would sell. APF2k8 game-play is still alot better than the current Madden.

the tiered/bronze, gold etc players was a great idea that kept the game play balanced and would go a long way in a franchise mode.
in addition, a fictional league that keeps historical records, where the users universe plays out in its own world would be great for us stats geeks.

starting a franchise league from year one has so much potential. in the draft do you draft a 21 year old rookie or do you draft a 33 year old qb with some professional experience. those types of elements in the APF player tiered structure really adds an element of team building

2k dropped the ball when they didnt include a franchise mode in the original APF2k
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:14 AM   #15
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Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

Your reply is all over the place. I'll try to keep this succinct and touch on the different points without writing another term paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mestevo
You 'disagree completely' by then agreeing with me. When I'm getting weekly announcing and roster updates it tells me EA finds value in franchise customers, they are making metrics-backed decisions to continue to develop the mode (albeit at a pace few would agree with) and support it throughout the season. To discount it entirely is silly (as are many absolutes in discussions like this), almost as silly as saying APF would be successful if it was just remastered and re-released - which is what my reply is based off of.
You specifically used 'franchise' as a reason 2K8 was a monetary failure. I agree the product needed additional gameplay features that enabled some form of longevity, but in terms of commercial viability, having a franchise mode in today's market is not what's going to sell the game.

Sure, EA says they're working hard on franchise mode. They promise it will be better.

Ea says a lot of things. We all know MUT sales are driving development and that they're very interested in E-sports. These are objectively factual observations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mestevo
I think it's kind of funny to suggest they need to innovate by letting you do non-football things. Personally I think this is why non-licensed games typically fail, they try too hard to do something that everyone is looking to do. If team play was an innovation people wanted, it would probably still be in Madden in some form. Your prior post said people don't care about players, and now you suggest an ultimate team mode... how much will they care about generic players?
I said the user base did not care about the "legends" of all pro because they could not connect with them on a personal level. How many people, even avid football fans, could tell you who Joe Perry, Dave Wilcox, Don Maynard, and Leonard Marshall are?

How many kids and young adults want to play with an all pro fullback from the 50's when you can put the other game in and play with Saquan Barkley, right now?

Did Madden remove OTP? It was in 18, I usually wait until the end of the cycle to buy madden cheap and have not bothered with 19.

You're also thinking about these things (potential game modes like an Ultimate Team, Online Team play, ETC.) in a prism that they have to be just like EA's. 2K's basketball title has a mode call my park with 3v3 and 2v2 modes. Anyone who's played football knows about "Skelly" (7 v 7). There are different ways to creatively innovate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mestevo
You have to start with a football game. You build on the football game, and you build your feedback loop around what people want to do in a football game. If you take all the traditional things away then what do you have left? At that point why even 11 on 11? Why even have names or rosters? If people don't care about players, maybe they won't care about plays either? Dumb down your customer so far and you end up w/ a 10 yard fight remake, but at least you can press a button to get a couple extra yards.
I don't understand where you are coming from, contextually, with this paragraph. The bridge you are trying to build here has no foundation.

Franchise is not what's bringing people back to Madden. No matter how large the flowing river of tears becomes from the OS user base; The game continues to sell.

For me personally 2K8 was okay. I will still play it because I enjoy the schematic nature of it. I have never said that is for everyone. The title of thread is "Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?".

I did say that if the product was going to work commercially they would need additional revenue streams to do so. And Franchise is not going to be one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mestevo
With no depth you have no game. People don't watch Patrick Mahomes throw an 80 yard bomb and then wish there was a game that lets them setup generic chess pieces to scheme for/against such a play (and man... if you think that customer is more lucrative than franchise players, I'm not sure what to say). To reiterate the point of my post (as you honed in on only franchise) - with no longevity a game like APF is dead on arrival, and APF remains the biggest example of this.
Your "point" evidenced franchise as the primary driver for that. Your assertion that "no modes (franchise or otherwise)" means more than just franchise does not work, because the only thing Madden 08 had that 2K8 didn't is franchise.

It's 2019 dude. The market is different today. The games are different today. The consumer... They're different today.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:08 AM   #16
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Re: Would you be interested in 2K football returning with no NFL license?

You literally quoted where I said it's not just about franchise, and then have gone way down the rabbit hole arguing a point that I didn't make.

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