Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

[OSUPiper]

I do not feel that these players exist in the CH2K8 universe to the extent that we see them in real life. To an extent, players take on roles due to the effect of Shot Tendencies, and like real life, many good players are just better across the board than the average players. However, I feel like the recruit generator in CH just generates attribute ratings that are too correlated with overall ratings. I also dislike the number of teams with 4+ "star players." Even National Championship teams are not typically loaded with NBA-caliber guys.


For instance, as an Oklahoma State grad, I can recall many seasons where the Pokes had a lockdown defender or (like last year) a defensive post presence with little offensive value. I think this dynamic would make CH much more interesting, and it is pretty much the last piece of my Legacy System puzzle (since I am at the end of slider tweaks).


I am looking for your comments on:


1. How often you see a role player in CH2K8, and what types of role players;
2. How often SHOULD we see role players and defensive minded players; and
3. What strategies you guys might have for creating role players.

[Brock]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

Actually this has been something I've always thought about with choops, and something I wanted to be worked on if they ever released another game. I was using an excel spreadsheet to "export" players and with doing that, I noticed that players aren't exactly carbon copies of one another, but they weren't that much different. IMO, the recruit generator loosely generates players for a specific play type, but usually are mainly all-around.

Like I've seen pg's and sg's that can't actually shoot, but can attack the basket (slashers, pass-first pg's, etc.) I've also seen some that actually have high on-ball defense and good defensive skills.

If they were to ever make another choops game I wish they would do like they did with ESPN College Hoops (2k4) and give players specific play-types or play-styles, or even like what NCAA football series does.

I also noticed when I did finally finish a draft class, choops seems to generate alot of defensive players.

Lol, I just re-read your post while typing. Umm, I believe the role players for power/major teams would usually be the lower rated players if that's what you mean. Like a low 80's or mid-high 70's. 4* "busts" or 3* prospects usually.

Addition: This forum has extremely died off in like the past 1 1/2 - 2 years, I wouldn't expect much replies.

[milldaddy35]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

Usually my role players are good for about 4 or so ppg, and they are mostly shooters, or big guys that can rebound.

[RolePlayer]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

I think the recuirting thing is the problem I am in year 36 of my Coaching legacy
And it seems the whole NCAA is turned into white players who can shoot. I have been coaching UNC for about 11 seasons and my team has 11 white players and 2 black players and it seems most teams are like this. Which creates alot of similar players. But maybe there is some hope I am recruiting a 4 star 7'6 Center who is a beast shot blocker and post up player. Who might be able to lead me to my fith National Title.

[OSUPiper]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

Addition: This forum has extremely died off in like the past 1 1/2 - 2 years, I wouldn't expect much replies.

It will pick up soon, I think, as we get deeper into the December hoops schedule. I just like any feedback; since we do not have a new college basketball or football game on the horizon, it is nice to have this community to take the two best games out there and make them as good as they can be.

[OSUPiper]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

I think the recuirting thing is the problem I am in year 36 of my Coaching legacy
And it seems the whole NCAA is turned into white players who can shoot. I have been coaching UNC for about 11 seasons and my team has 11 white players and 2 black players and it seems most teams are like this. Which creates alot of similar players. But maybe there is some hope I am recruiting a 4 star 7'6 Center who is a beast shot blocker and post up player. Who might be able to lead me to my fith National Title.

I am glad someone else sees this. I was wondering myself about the ratio of players across ethnic groups, including the World players (which I find to be done well in this game -- just recruited a Japanese kid who looks the part). I may research this a little more and see if I can figure out a system for edits.

[OSUPiper]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

Usually my role players are good for about 4 or so ppg, and they are mostly shooters, or big guys that can rebound.

I experience the same thing. I have some guys that basically fill spots and toss in a few points each game, which is fine with me because I think that is consistent with real life. I also have a good rebounding forward and often a good rebounding guard, which I also like.


What I do not see is a lockdown defender, or a team that struggles in the halfcourt but is dominant on defense.


I also rarely see the pure spot-up three-point bomber. This game has a good selection of players that end up in that role, but many of those 3-pt specialists have high Drive tendencies, etc., and are able to get a shot up on their own. IRL, you see "stretch" guys that cannot create their own shot, but rather hide in the corner and make you pay for collapsing on the post. My sliders do a good job of rewarding the dribble-drive and kick-out for the 3, or the deep post executing a cross-pass for an angle 3. I just think a pure spot-up shooter would be more interesting on a roster every couple of seasons.

[milldaddy35]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

I experience the same thing. I have some guys that basically fill spots and toss in a few points each game, which is fine with me because I think that is consistent with real life. I also have a good rebounding forward and often a good rebounding guard, which I also like.


What I do not see is a lockdown defender, or a team that struggles in the halfcourt but is dominant on defense.


I also rarely see the pure spot-up three-point bomber. This game has a good selection of players that end up in that role, but many of those 3-pt specialists have high Drive tendencies, etc., and are able to get a shot up on their own. IRL, you see "stretch" guys that cannot create their own shot, but rather hide in the corner and make you pay for collapsing on the post. My sliders do a good job of rewarding the dribble-drive and kick-out for the 3, or the deep post executing a cross-pass for an angle 3. I just think a pure spot-up shooter would be more interesting on a roster every couple of seasons.

My team struggles scoring, but is good at defense. We average 67 Points per game, but only give up 53 ppg. I am in my 2nd year at Florida International after 3 years at UC Davis. In my first year I made it in the big dance as a 5 seed, and won the first round game against Hofstra, before losing to 4 seed Wisconsin 57-55.

In my first two games of the season this year I beat #24 Notre Dame 77-73, and beat Air Force 72-56. I think some games can be low scoring, but there aren't many games in the 50's or 60's unless it is a lopsided game.

[OSUPiper]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

I like that it can happen, as in your legacy. And I have had teams with no offensive identity, where I typically default to high-pressure defense to try and create fast break points since I have no chance in a halfcourt contest.


But it is not unusual for a team to have one prolific scorer, and maybe one other offensive threat, and that team finds a way to create problems for opponents (e.g., David Robinson at Navy, Bird at Indiana State, and more recently Jimmer Fredette at BYU, as extreme examples).


Consider also that even the most loaded teams in the post-Wooden era (e.g., 1991 UNLV, 2013-14 Kentucky, Michigan Fab Five) were not "99 OFF and 99 DEF." (To be fair, 1991 UNLV could make that argument...) In contrast, two seasons ago in my current legacy, my team was 94 OFF and 97 DEF by tourney time. Further, several people have seen 99 rated teams. Outside of a few seasons at UCLA, a 99 rated team appears rarely once a decade. Even then, teams are not equally dominant against everyone at both ends of the floor.


This is where my last focus is going to be on CH2K8: is it possible absent wholesale editing of every incoming class to create more diversity in team rosters? I know it will require editing, which I already do with Freshmen, but if I am basically reconstructing the entire class then there is no point. Then, assuming that I can reasonably make those edits, how will those players grow and mature over a career under CH2K8 ratings progression?


Finally, if all of this is feasible, how many archetypes (stretch-4, stopper, 3-pt specialist, freak athlete/Dunkenstein, etc.) do I need to create and how often should you see each type? I know it seems like a huge undertaking, but actually if you have a system, you would only edit 10-20% of incoming freshmen at the most, and I already edit more than that.

[tril]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

all this is tied into how you train your players throughout the season.
if you dont alter the player training for each individual player on your team, then most the players will develop the same way.

the way I recruit is,
if I find a good rebounder but has a low potential grade. Ill focus on his strengths when training said player.
same for shooters, defenders etc...

or you can find a 2 star player with excellent potential across the board.. by the time he's in his fourth year he can develop into a stud.

these methods work especially well when using lower ranked schools that's hard to recruit 4/5 star players.

the game is fun and challenging when you stay away from coaching the top tier programs.

this game is deep on so many levels.

[OSUPiper]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

I agree.


But what I am hoping to find is a way to emphasize this behavior in CPU teams. In a professional league, this is manageable in a brute force approach. In College Hoops, with ten times as many teams, it will take a more reasoned, min-max sort of approach. Or, it might just not be reasonable to even try.

[tril]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

I agree.


But what I am hoping to find is a way to emphasize this behavior in CPU teams. In a professional league, this is manageable in a brute force approach. In College Hoops, with ten times as many teams, it will take a more reasoned, min-max sort of approach. Or, it might just not be reasonable to even try.

But what I am hoping to find is a way to emphasize this behavior in CPU teams. In a professional league, this is manageable in a brute force approach. In College Hoops, with ten times as many teams, it will take a more reasoned, min-max sort of approach. Or, it might just not be reasonable to even try.[/QUOTE]

though the dominant big man is rare. when my team does go against a team with a dominant center or pf... they definitely impact the game.
same on the perimeter. its subtle but they defend. Its not emphasized like it it is in the current 2k games but it is. check the symbols on the opposing teams and youll notice that they have those traits.
In addition Ive come across plenty of players that dominate offensively, wher you have no choice to double team or play a zone and 1, etc.

this game was ahead of its time. all these player tendencies are in the game. all these little things mentioned have been implemented and refined in the current NBA 2k games. even the recruiting/training aspect. even player collisions.

This is why 2k needs to get back in the college hoops game...

[jcofor25]

Re: Role players and lockdown defenders in CH2K8

Only role players I have ever seen (at least on my teams) have only been shooters or "busted" recruits turned good at something. The center I do have now after everyone graduated came in at 69. As a SR he is a mere 76 but is a decent rebounder and a good defender (just got the icon 2 games ago) recording 4 blks last game. I won't ever EVER count on him to score due to his measly 87 close shot.

As far as dominant big men, few and far between. I did have the luxury of moving from Siena to Georgia Tech with the #1 center coming to the program and yes he did dominate. Rated 83? Coming in. He could destroy the post offensively and defensively. At 7'1" rebounding wasn't a problem. After he left for the NBA, I moved to Oregon St. To rebuild that program but they and either #1 or #2 center coming.