EA developers--- The Problem with the pass rush is QB logic

[Ram209]

Quote: Originally Posted by JRod

On 4. Well that is just football. If a slot receiver has 95 speed he SHOULD destroy the defense. In the real game, if a player had that type of speed he wouldn't be the slot receiver. We've all be playing games long enough to forget real football. What team in the world can play man-to-man with a slow defense. That's why you have to call zone plays. This leads me to your fifth point. If they have a strong and fast RB why aren't you calling flat zones when you have a slow MLB/OLB. Are they broken? Maybe but I dont' see it. Right now I'm playing as BC who have slow LBs and CBs. I get killed in man situations. I have to call zones to shut down the passing game. The QBs are too good but they are not impossible. If you have a poor line, you have to call blitzes. By calling a blitz you hope your D can make a play. This is football but completely forgotten in NCAA/Madden. Most of us still play according to the football world of Madden not the real game. I think this is why so many here expect to play dime man and shut down the run and pass, get sacks and ints. I'm not saying you are wrong because I think things can be tweaked. But the sky isn't falling like so many here say. I like the challange and I can shut down great teams with smart calls. That's not saying the line play can't be improved. I just people have forgotten how to play football and still play with "Madden" rules.

I agree 1000% People are so used to playing "Madden" were it used to be your 88 speed OLB could hang with the cpu 95 speed HB/WR now that RATINGS matter and you have to call a better defensive game and people cant get away with calling fire man all game long they are getting pissed.

BUT I also have to agree with AuburnAlumni the OLINE is way to powerful like he said you can get sacks but its the constant pressure and havoc a good DLINE causes that we are missing from this game. And the sad part is the DLINE plays the run so well. Think last years superbowl and what kind of havoc a good dline can cause. That is what we should be seeing when we take Auburn vs North Texas state!

So On one side they have nailed D perfectly( Coverage and calling a better game) Yet on the other side they could have not messed it up anymore?

[AuburnAlumni]

Quote: Originally Posted by JRod

For this to happen you would need to scrap the NCAA/Madden blocking engine. Knowing EA they aren't going to do this. In APF, there was acual line pushes both by the off and def lines. THERE IS NONE OF THIS TYPE OF PLAY IN MADDEN OR NCAA. Knowing that I can't expect to see the type of interaction you described until this Tiburon installs a new blocking engine. Now as a band-aid to fix this, they would need to make the QBs less accurate and make it so they focus on their primary receiver but are hampered in finding their outlets. The better QBs would be able to "see" the entire field. What you are asking for is not possible in the current Madden/NCAA engines.

No, you are wrong.

For this to happen, they would need to allow the DL to not fall down 5 out of 6 plays, and to allow a more balanced OL/DL "battle". I.e. Don't have every OL stonewall every DL.

Then all they have to do is tweak the CPU AI so that if there is a DL within a yard of them, they get a huge hit to their QB Accuracy.

They don't have to scrap a whole freaking engine because the pass rush PRIOR to NCAA 09..with the same engine, was VASTLY....I mean...VASTLY superior to this year's verison.

[jfsolo]

In NCAA 08 for the 360 there were 3 major problems. The inability to put proper touch on the deep ball, the CPU QB never attempting the deep ball, and of course The CPU QB's totally brain dead decision making leading to the absurd interception problem.

There were of course other flaws, but these were the standard EA football game flaws that had existed for years, and could be dealt with using slider adjustments.

Given the limitations of EA's player to player interactions and lack of animations, I had no problem with any aspect of the way the defense played last year. It was by far the most fun I had playing defense in any EA football game, and was only marred by the excessive picks.

When we started the Wishlist for '09 the first thing I listed, and made bold for emphases, was for them to rewrite the CPU QB A.I. totally. Yes, there were other things that needed major work too, but this was the most glaring problem with game, and had been for many years.

Its seems that instead of totally redoing the QB A.I., they neutered every part of the defense instead.

Most here feel as if '09 is vastly superior to '08 despite what appears to be a lot more major flaws concerning the gameplay and A.I.(I can't say of course, having decided to not even rent '09) So it looks like EA made the right choice in doing what they did, as the flaws of '09 seem more palatable to people here then those of '08.

[booker21]

Quote: Originally Posted by AuburnAlumni

No, you are wrong. For this to happen, they would need to allow the DL to not fall down 5 out of 6 plays, and to allow a more balanced OL/DL "battle". I.e. Don't have every OL stonewall every DL. Then all they have to do is tweak the CPU AI so that if there is a DL within a yard of them, they get a huge hit to their QB Accuracy. They don't have to scrap a whole freaking engine because the pass rush PRIOR to NCAA 09..with the same engine, was VASTLY....I mean...VASTLY superior to this year's verison.

i think there is a combination of many factors.

1st, Qb are way too accuarate
2nd pass rush is none exist
3rd CPU qb always goes to the hot route (quick route) they don´t take any chances going deep.

these 3 makes QB % way too high, and pass rush is one of the reason, not the only one.

on the other side, if they, assume some miracle happen and they fix this, then the whole sim engine is wrong, because when you sim games, QB get 90% yeah, i saw some qb, and they got 90% pass comp.


THe only sacks i get is on pass screen, QB just hold the ball

[JRod]

Quote: Originally Posted by AuburnAlumni

No, you are wrong. For this to happen, they would need to allow the DL to not fall down 5 out of 6 plays, and to allow a more balanced OL/DL "battle". I.e. Don't have every OL stonewall every DL. Then all they have to do is tweak the CPU AI so that if there is a DL within a yard of them, they get a huge hit to their QB Accuracy. They don't have to scrap a whole freaking engine because the pass rush PRIOR to NCAA 09..with the same engine, was VASTLY....I mean...VASTLY superior to this year's verison.

I didn't say the entire game engine but the entire blocking engine.

I like it how we seem to forget that the game is played mostly in the same manner as the PS2 days.

If we were to use APF/NFL 2k as a baseline for line interaction, I think you would find that NCAA has not done anything in regards to this in years.

Last year, instead of a push you got pressure by defenders blowing past the OL. There was no push, in fact there has never been a push. There has never been a rushing push or a dl push. For this to happen you would have to drastically increase the number of OL/DL interactions and redo a lot of AI. To me that is scrap the OL/DL line play.

Why does this year's version appear to be bad. It's not because their are more pancakes. That looks about that same as last year, it's because speed in much more of a factor and the QBs are too good. I bet if the QBs were worse, there wouldn't be as much of a hoopla over this.


I must have the golden version because on Heisman with 50 CPU sliders and 50 HUM Acc if I can get to the QB I can cause offline throws. I can even cause early throws. I even cause the magic mystery pick-6 ball right to my defender.

I'll take a team with 90+ DLs against a pancake and see what I do a little later tonight.


I don't know, I'm having fun with the game. I don't think I've lowered my standards but I like how the challagne this year feels fair and not CPU canned.

I would like to see the CPU take more chances deep, and offline throws. I think that could be patchable. If that happened I would be happy. What some of you propose would take another year to implement.

[Mad 69]

What pisses me off the most is that the CPU doesn't have a problem pressuring. Even the weakest teams can get a number of sacks, allowing you little or no time in the pocket. Forget about under center playaction formations, its broke. How can the CPU defense be OK and the human side busted?

[AuburnAlumni]

Quote: Originally Posted by JRod

Last year, instead of a push you got pressure by defenders blowing past the OL. There was no push, in fact there has never been a push. There has never been a rushing push or a dl push. For this to happen you would have to drastically increase the number of OL/DL interactions and redo a lot of AI. To me that is scrap the OL/DL line play. Why does this year's version appear to be bad. It's not because their are more pancakes. That looks about that same as last year, it's because speed in much more of a factor and the QBs are too good. I bet if the QBs were worse, there wouldn't be as much of a hoopla over this.

Ok, you've lost your street cred here. There are about 1000000x times more pancakes this year. Do I need to post 5 straight downs on video of Auburn's Defensive line falling down like the three stooges or getting locked in a "dancing animation" with a linemen from Louisiana Lafayette for that to sink in?

I played the absolute hell out of NCAA 08. Defenses COULD be dominant.

This year...and I'll go ahead and say it...the EA programmers completely neutered all aspects of the Defensive gameplay to manufacture "wide open gameplay" . That's a nicer name for "Zero Defense".

There is a definite speed cheat on offense, allowing 88 speed Halfbacks to go for 90 yard touchdowns with 87-90 speed DBs never able to catch up to them in a realistic manner.

There are broken zone DB AI issues. Robo QB is insane this year. And the "coup de gras" is of course the absolutely ridiculous Offensive line blocking which renders defensive ratings totally meaningless.

Even blitzes aren't really scary at all. They take too long with horrid angles by the blitzers and "Super blocking" by even 170 pound scat backs.

And the fun factor is slowly draining for me when every damn game is 42-35 or 38-28.

I WANT to have a game that is 17-10 or 13-3, etc. They happen all the time. I shouldn't give up 35 points a game on 8 minute quarters with a 94 rated defense. And don't tell me it's because "I cant play defense". I've been in the top 4 as far as coaches go in just about every league I've been in so it's not like I don't know how to play the game.

Do not even attempt to say that NCAA 09 isn't much different on defense than 08. It's a completely different animal..and not in a good way.

[Bootzilla]

Quote: Originally Posted by JRod

Yes but he wouldn't get 15 sacks a game. He would put pressure on the Qb. But you guys make it out like you can't get pressure on the QB. Is it totally realistic? Not this year but like I said it's not impossible. If the team was worth anything, they would double team the lineman possibly opening up another weak point in their line. Or they would go to short drops. A 95 rated DE could NOT get to a QB with any regularity on a short drop. But then the offense would be in timing routes and QB/WR timing and QB accuracy would be brought into the the equation. Like I said, QB accuracy and line play should be improved but it's not a game killer like so many of you make it out to be. The passing game is too heavily focused on a west coast offense. I would like to see a deeper passing game from the CPU or atleast increase the frequency that the CPU tries to throw deep. But I have zero problems with that stat line at the end. And with the right play calling I can hold the CPU to 50% completion rate. The pass completion rate is too high for a college football game. You should see QBs throw for more than 200 yards even completeing less than 50% of their throws. Right now this doesn't happen. The passing game in NCAA resembles more of the NFL passing game. But I'm still able to hold the CPU with the right combination of play calling and stick work. That's not something I can say about previous versions. And I'm no Madden Nation gamer.

Who said anything about 15 sacks a game? If you get pressure, your defenders won't have to cover as long and those hook zones will be better covered. Darn near every blitz gets stonewalled and the QB goes to the correct hot read every time. I'm not making it out to seem as though it is impossible to get pressure or sacks for that matter. Heck, I thought everybody was crazy with the sack talk when I had 9 against Texas (w/Oklahoma). But, overall the pass rush is poor. When was the last time a cpu teammate beat his man for a sack except for a screen when the QB hangs on to the ball or you manually flush the QB from the pocket.

What I was referring to in my previous post was a reply to the original poster that said a 95 WR should eat up a defense. I actually agree. But, so should a 95 DE or DT be able to wreck some havoc. If the QB has forever to throw a 75 WR should be able to dominate. And you should be able to scheme to stop either. The poster claimed that it isn't real football to expect a pass rush and that we're just used to Madden football. I bet if your 95 rated WR couldn't outrun a 65 rated cornerback you'd be pretty upset.

I