I think I may have figured out why play action pass gets blown up so often

[RDTII]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramminyou

http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/33642593 http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/33642681 http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/33642742 The second one is a pretty good example of a successful PA pass. The LBs look like they're reacting and the pass protection against the 4-man rush is perfect. The last one sees 2 of my O-Linemen getting beat pretty quick. While one is helped out by another OLman, the other is not helped out by my HB who either reacts too slow or can't block him because I get in his way. I can't tell. The only person who comes in untouched is the blitzing nickelback. And it's hard to tell if he would have gone after the HB at all because he gets in a bit late and actually has to move around one of the linemen. But here's my question. Is this a result of poor PA protection or poor pass protection in general? Hard to tell. Miami has a good D-line with two impact players. I'm not going to freak out if they're able to beat my O-Line once in a while. I'm going to play through a game and observe the D on my first 12 passes (to match the 12 PA passes I've observed during testing so far). I'll see if the D-Line can get to me with equal success or if it seems like my O-line shuts them out with better frequency.

it's hard to say whether of not your videos prove anything either way because we don't know how persistent/successful you were with the run game.

First of all, most of the complaints about playaction are about attempting it under center (from what I've heard/experienced).

Secondly, the notion that you shouldn't run playaction against a blitz is ridiculous. Bootlegs and rollouts are design to take advantage of blitzing defenses keyed on the run.

I believe the biggest problem in the game is that there is not an organic flow of affecting the defenses keys by what's hurting them. Have a great running game does NOT mean playaction is going to throw anybody off, everything pretty much resets play to play.

[dalecooper]

Quote: Originally Posted by RDTII

Secondly, the notion that you shouldn't run playaction against a blitz is ridiculous. Bootlegs and rollouts are design to take advantage of blitzing defenses keyed on the run.

I don't think anybody has said that exactly. If I did, that isn't what I meant. The problem is that the CPU often sends MEGA-blitzes (like 7-8 guys, or the four linemen plus two corners) and a playaction from under center is so slow-developing that you WILL get sacked on these plays, which isn't far off reality. My feeling is that the computer shouldn't be sending these huge blitzes nearly so often because let's face it, it's pretty ridiculous - but if you see it coming and run PA anyway, you deserve what you get. Also it's people running PA on obvious passing downs (third and long) against mega-blitzes and then complaining they got sacked... well, duh. That's a horrible situation for anything except a standard dropback.

Playaction ought to be fine against more conventional 5 and some 6 man blitzes, at least if you've established the run and there's any kind of possibility that they are run-blitzing; or barring that, if you have enough blockers to pick up the blitz. But against 7-8 guys or double blitzing corners, you're taking your life into your hands. Too many guys coming free and not all of them are going to flock to the halfback, even in real life.

[Ramminyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by dalecooper

I will put up my own thread when the time comes. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, it's just that personally, I'm interested in all aspects of PA plays and not just this one thing. However, I'd fire your own question back at you: did YOU read the OP? What you're testing is not what he tested. He was running a specific nickel defense with what I believe is a four man rush. i.e. A normal game circumstance and not an outlier scenario. He didn't say "no matter what you do you get sacked every time." To the contrary, he identified a specific thing going wrong against a specific defense, and said that it might be a key reason why play action results in sacks a lot of the time (not all the time though, or even half the time). Quote: "I took Maryland into practice mode, chose "Random Play" from the play action section, and then put the D into nickel 2 man cover. Maybe 30-40% of the time either the RE or LE easily beat the Tackle and got to the QB..." That's very specific. He tells you how many people are rushing and how often the blocking assignments were missed. Your results don't contradict his; they are tangentially related.

I didn't put much stock in his actual test or the results. As I said in a post earlier about them, he doesn't really give us a basis for his measurements. What does "get beat" mean to him, for example. And given the phrase "maybe 30% - 40%," it doesn't appear that he was being very thorough examining the results.

The thrust of his post and many of the complaints, however, is that the blocking is substantially worse during PA that often, some people have claimed the majority of the time, it is next to impossible to successfully make a pass (not successfully complete, but to pass altogether). My tests meant to show, and have convinced me, that it is next to impossible to tell if the blocking is any worse. I haven't noticed any significant increase in free running D-Lineman going from regular passes to PA passes. The issue as put by him and others was that straightforward, and I just don't see it.

What I do see, however, is what was mentioned by some, maybe you, in regards to another issue - blitzing defenders simply do not react to the PA. And since the CPU blitzes as much as it does, a higher number of PA plays result in instant pressure. This is not new and I admitted this was a problem pages ago.

[ReeseChiarlo]

What I dont get, is its not broke for the CPU, they have no problem completing Play Action and getting great blocking. The user Defensive line often bites on the fake. But the CPU defensive line never bites on the fake. Something is amiss there for sure.

Only time I get the PA to work is on all out CPU blitzes where I can throw a quick pass right after the fake, even with that though, my QB is getting killed after or during the release of the ball, so it still only works maybe 40% of the time and has to be on an all out blitz. Ive been sacked on PA before the QB even was able to make the fake handoff. Its most certainly broken.