Animations & Ratings, how they go hand in hand

[hanzsomehanz]

I've had a similar working on sheet regarding the ratings and I'm thankful I have found your post here and now. GMS, this is a great 'write-up' but I would have to defer that EA is aware and they can give us the results we're looking for with the product they have got.

It's not that the ratings mean nothing, it's just that many - no - the majority of ratings are not significant. It's like the min. speed threshold - we want to see distinction. I hear that being expressed through your words - distinction of elite versus scrub; distinction of elite animation versus scrub animation.

I see their is an opportunity for more pass/fail animations to be implemented into the game.I have a hard time putting my faith in the other side if what you said was your debate argument.

I do believe still though that it's not that they mean nothing but that there are a plethora of ratings that are insignificant. I found this out using an excel spreadsheet. The formula was a statistic formula for rank and significance. The very ratings you mentioned are part of the bulk that are considered insignificant.

I would hope your post gets stickied. I'm going to use your post as an attachment to mine, kind of like a page one and page two with page two being the reference.

In my post I will be going into the depth of the ratings system and what we sacrifice by having insignificant ratings; especially ratings that need significance (you expounded on this). I'll also explain what deems them insignificant (this is the main analysis). It's all going to come together and this is a perfect segue. My work will be more of an abc/xyz exposé on the entirety of the rating system. You have saved me a lot of writing and have also freed me up to not feel 'alone on an island'

Can't stop - won't stop! GMS Strikes back!

[hanzsomehanz]

Sorry, I didn't actually mention why I defer to the other even in the face of GMS' clearly insightful post.

EA is capable of enabling momentum and mass to be transferred through each and every player which would give them a full body as you mentioned in your breakdown with your theory on joints.

It's not that the joints are not their - as you said about animations. The default package and ratings among other things like penalties - it is all a collective mess. It's a mess you would have to filter through tostrike the pot of gold of the game which would deliver an authentic, life-like experience.

I'm really just trying to say that, on their side, they are probably laughing at us when we come up with this aberrations. They have the money and the capacity of intelligence and manpower to do and deliver just as you wish. It's a will issue and not a skill issue. They willfully kill this area of the game.

When you watch the trailers, you see the bait and you bite. But when they package the game they bury all that good treasure among this pile of dung - for lack of a better word..

Everything that Glitters aint (always) Gold..

These guys, NCAA and MADDEN, they're not playing the game on all-madden or all-pro. Their tuning the game to the most cinematic setting and then showing it off. It's fool's gold. This is clearly why the community of us here go under the hood every year - we're searching for that gold.

Every year, we come up empty looking like fools - and EA? They suffer us fools, gladly.. they mock us with these tricks.. they change this slider and then this one.. every year they change their system..

This kind of back-lashing, I come to realize, makes us look even more wet behind the ears and just fuels their fire more. They just come out the next year and infuriate this community some more by sending you on another Easter egg hunt or wild goose chase or they give you the wrong directions to find the true treasure lol it makes us truly look childish - we getting pawned man.

I say pawned because we cannot keep believing these things are accidental.. and that they are incompetent and totally ineligible for the jobs. What other company do you know out there that asks their community for feedback on the little things and opens a thread on their own forum and yet after all is said and done they can't even fix the direction signal of the wind on the kicking meter? It's still backwards in M13.. that's a mocking man lol

Nevertheless, these words need to be trumpeted! And we need to keep marching! We do need to be less about the takeover mentality - wipe out their crew and start new. We just gotta keep doing our thing here, contentedly, and be the good citizens we are and represent OS to the best of our unified capacity. We don't' need to be in EA's office to provoke change and deliver justice, that's kind of out of our hands and a very far reaching opportunity to hope for - even then it's more than a one piece game on the board - there will always be rank.

Folks, as much as you reference GMS for referral - would EA allow an employee to speak this way about their product? or hire someone who rebukes their product? We need GMS HERE because here is where he can use his voice!

[Sundown2600]

Man the only way they're gonna fix anything is when ppl stop running out to buy their games. I'm not dissing anybody or whatever but all of this techie psycho-babble about ratings and formulas and all this other stuff means nothing at all. They know they don't need to deal with the real issues because ppl are still going to go out and buy their games. It's like a had an epiphany about a month ago in regards to this series. I'm spending hours and hours tweaking ratings, moving sliders, adjusting auto subs, making custom playbooks, all of this crap. Not to mention doing all of this on a ****ty slow menu that lags behind like a granny in a supermarket. Doing all of this stuff in my free time for days, weeks, months at a time. One day my girlfriend looked at me and asked "Why don't you actually play the game?" Then she just shakes her head and walks off lol. That in a nutshell is the problem with NCAA. Most of us posting in threads started by Skillz are more than happy to edit the game to get it play to our liking and that in and of itself is acceptable, but there is no way in hell that we should be wracking our brains day in and day out trying to force a square into a circle opening. It's time for the self-deception to stop. Ppl telling themselves its fun to spend half an off day from work or school tweaking ratings and trying to fix broken sliders. Their ain't nothing fun about that! I'm not gonna lie to myself anymore. There are waytoo many great games available so late in this console cycle to waste time with this game man. I love what Han wrote in his posts above mine. Ppl out here searching for a pot of gold that's not there. You can tweak ratings and sliders for 6 months day and night and guess what? The things that cripple this game will not go away. Anything else is just flat out acceptance of mediocrity or denial of such. Just my opinion of course and I'm not being a hypocrite because I did like this year's game, but that's my fault for accepting a mediocre product. Can't do that anymore. It takes too much of my time to even get it to a halfway decent level of acceptibility playing wise.

[TarHeelPhenom]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sundown2600

Man the only way they're gonna fix anything is when ppl stop running out to buy their games. I'm not dissing anybody or whatever but all of this techie psycho-babble about ratings and formulas and all this other stuff means nothing at all. They know they don't need to deal with the real issues because ppl are still going to go out and buy their games. It's like a had an epiphany about a month ago in regards to this series. I'm spending hours and hours tweaking ratings, moving sliders, adjusting auto subs, making custom playbooks, all of this crap. Not to mention doing all of this on a ****ty slow menu that lags behind like a granny in a supermarket. Doing all of this stuff in my free time for days, weeks, months at a time. One day my girlfriend looked at me and asked "Why don't you actually play the game?" Then she just shakes her head and walks off lol. That in a nutshell is the problem with NCAA. Most of us posting in threads started by Skillz are more than happy to edit the game to get it play to our liking and that in and of itself is acceptable, but there is no way in hell that we should be wracking our brains day in and day out trying to force a square into a circle opening. It's time for the self-deception to stop. Ppl telling themselves its fun to spend half an off day from work or school tweaking ratings and trying to fix broken sliders. Their ain't nothing fun about that! I'm not gonna lie to myself anymore. There are waytoo many great games available so late in this console cycle to waste time with this game man. I love what Han wrote in his posts above mine. Ppl out here searching for a pot of gold that's not there. You can tweak ratings and sliders for 6 months day and night and guess what? The things that cripple this game will not go away. Anything else is just flat out acceptance of mediocrity or denial of such. Just my opinion of course and I'm not being a hypocrite because I did like this year's game, but that's my fault for accepting a mediocre product. Can't do that anymore. It takes too much of my time to even get it to a halfway decent level of acceptibility playing wise.

I feel you to a certain degree. As I get older...knocking on 40...playing the games aren't as fun anymore because you come to the realization that at some point you're just going to be able to outsmart the AI and beat the game. It's gonna happen if you play long enough. At that point you have to come up with house rules to handicap yourself from winning 25 Championships in a row. That or play on some level the developers put in and turn the sliders up on super cheat and get frustrated with that. To be honest, I have had fun tweaking and watching this game this year...doing Coach Mode. So, for me I don't look at it as deception. Like many of us here, I've been here since day 1 with Bill Walsh so we all know the story. The flaws are obvious. To me...just my opinion...what ruined it all was...

THE EXCLUSIVE license...locking everybody else out from competing with EA. Think about it...if Usain Bolt ran the 100m by himself, would he break the world record?

Also, when it comes to video game football and this has always been true when it comes to HUM vs CPU...as long as the human opponent has the eye in the sky view from which to play from they will always have the advantage. Without house rules and all this other stuff handicapping the user, there will always be that advantage. No getting around that.

Heck, it's getting difficult for me to enjoy playing NBA 2k13 anymore lol. Maybe it's just a sign of the times for me...age...whatever...but HUM vs CPU games are boring me now.

[hanzsomehanz]

GMS, I have some numbers for you. This is an example of how our two pieces of work mesh like a fishing net.

First, your tiers are brilliant. In a scale or field, we need this distinctions, especially when determining rank - are you obese or at ideal weight? A little above or below the ideal?

We all need that ideal as a benchmark and then a max/min that triggers another signal. We also need that median that keeps us in check because the median in health may not always align with the ideal (example obesity being on the rise).

Back to football. I have some numbers regarding trucking, elusiveness and power moves.

In the M13 ratings spreadsheet, both these ratings have significance at 99. Basically they are at 99-100% significant. The formula is basically telling me, Hanz, if you have a player at 99 in this rating - he will be considered a BEAST! His prowess should stand apart. It is also telling me the efficacy of the rating and how substantial it is.

Significance speaks to the value in the following highlights.

Trucking
100% significance @ 99.
24% significance @ 11.
0.08 significance @ 10.

Elusiveness
99% significance @ 99.
2% significance @ 11.
0.17% significance @ 10.

Power Moves
99% significance @ 99.
42% significance @ 11.
0.04% significance @ 10.

Now, here is the concern - if you don't already see it.

Why do power moves remain relevant at a rating of 11?
Why do the efficiencies of the the abilities tip below 1% at 10?

10 is the classic tipping point in the EA ratings sliders. People who can't throw often get a 5 or 10 in general. But what does this tell us about Power Moves? By giving so many people (almost half the entire league) 42% efficacy with power moves, you would think we would see a great scrum bath in the trenches? But why don't we, by default?

This is what requires more investigation. Look no further than the blocking ratings for defensive players. Almost every player in the league has a minimum of 45 run block and pass block as well as impact block across the board. This is what makes these attributes - insignificant.

Weight Matters - Make weight Matter

If everybody in the world had the ideal weight - it would make obesity - extinct - it would also eliminate a lot of health professionals in the world.

Now, in my own post is where I get into how EA distributes their ratings and why. Essentially though, every rating has a weight. It's like weighing a big factory box 50x50 (but it's empty) versus a small box that is fit to the size of a brick and is also carrying a brick within it. that small box with the brick will obviously weigh more.

Number ME - What is MY worth?

In Madden and NCAA, for Football at least - they are erring with the distribution system of their ratings. They are trying to satisfy the 99 overall as a benchmark and so do everything they can to get players as HIGH as possible instead of getting them to as REAL as possible.

*Players need abilities and liabilities and their liabilities - this is their Net Worth

But because their rating system has different values for values - giving a player his true ratings and reflection of real life capacity, could actually have him come out with a 75 overall and this is offensive to consumers and the real life counterparts.

How is this notion carried out? By giving DB's among other players filler
ratings. Filler ratings are ratings that are not relevant to position nor player capacity in real life yet they are distributed to that player to BOOST his Overall Rating.

The Overall Rating in M13 is different from the rest of the rating family - it does not tip @ 10 - it tips way sooner.

At 50 Overall - a player is 0.84% relevant
* At the release of the game, there were 23 players who had a rating of 50 or less than 50 (only 23). The average rating among this group was 45 with the max being 50 and the min being 39. These players, I guess - to the game, are less than bench warmers or water boys. Anyhow, we should prolly never see them on the field and probably got cut.. I won't share their names for privacy reasons.

At 51 Overall - a player is 1.01% relevant, finally!

Now, is there not a problem with this threshold? Based on GMS' tiers, we could come up with our own tier for overalls and when a player should become significant and considered elite versus when he should be considered severely insignificant and a waterboy. But, should we even have/see waterboy's on the roster?

In short, there are a plethora of ratings that are too spread out and there are a plethora of ratings that are too high. The average overall in Madden is 71, the median being 70. An overall rating of 71 has 50% relevancy based on significance. This means, the average player is 50% relevant.

*A player with a rating of 75 should speak volumes of his significance. His significance should be within, I'll say, 5% of his rating but I'm really saying that if you are a 99 anywhere you aught to be a standout player in that ability - that is ratings being respected.

Are half the players in the NFL insignificant? Woe to those back-ups.. Woe to any hope that there is a Colin Kaepernick out there that could rise up and seize the day.. Woe to the Tom Brady's that could rise up and take their team to a Superbowl..

Overall ratings are not respected within 5% of their significance until you get to 78. Until you have a rating of 78 does the significance become within 5% (78:73). A player with an overall rating of 70 has 47.66% relevancy, in Madden 13.

Kaepernick is one of those players rated 70 out of the box and we see how he is shining today but his performance today required an adjustment to the ratings in game to reflect his prowess and significance today. Kaepernick should have already been considered 70% significant - the man has a professional pitchers arm and could have been drafted to the MLB. He's also got legs to Boot. THAT is significant! The average QB, let alone player, does not have an ARM and LEG!

Relevancy for overall needs to be a net worth based on positional ratings and the significance of those ratings and not EVERYTHING. If it was done this way, the overall could be maintained without using filler ratings which is economically considered, inflation.

The Numbers Don't Lie

This is how Madden's ratings system works. This is why the game is so black and white, so all or nothing because that's the base of their system. The game is a product of it's ratings, just as GMS suggested in his breakdown of tiers.

There are not enough tiers to distinguish the elite from the non-elite. We need more than a starter/backup analogy of a lineup. We need more than a us verse them mentality. We need more than a pass/fail mentality. And we need more than a mentality - we need a tiered system that is spread out like GMS suggested. We need more distinctions, indeed.

We have so many stalemates and immediate outcomes in the game, by default because the system is setup that way through the ratings. We then try to invent a new battle using sliders. I beg for mercy guys and would admit defeat if EA said they would go back to using their own sliders and now allowing users to edit their game because it is this passing of the buck that loosens their reins over the game.

[Sundown2600]

Quote: Originally Posted by TarHeelPhenom

I feel you to a certain degree. As I get older...knocking on 40...playing the games aren't as fun anymore because you come to the realization that at some point you're just going to be able to outsmart the AI and beat the game. It's gonna happen if you play long enough. At that point you have to come up with house rules to handicap yourself from winning 25 Championships in a row. That or play on some level the developers put in and turn the sliders up on super cheat and get frustrated with that. To be honest, I have had fun tweaking and watching this game this year...doing Coach Mode. So, for me I don't look at it as deception. Like many of us here, I've been here since day 1 with Bill Walsh so we all know the story. The flaws are obvious. To me...just my opinion...what ruined it all was... THE EXCLUSIVE license...locking everybody else out from competing with EA. Think about it...if Usain Bolt ran the 100m by himself, would he break the world record? Also, when it comes to video game football and this has always been true when it comes to HUM vs CPU...as long as the human opponent has the eye in the sky view from which to play from they will always have the advantage. Without house rules and all this other stuff handicapping the user, there will always be that advantage. No getting around that. Heck, it's getting difficult for me to enjoy playing NBA 2k13 anymore lol. Maybe it's just a sign of the times for me...age...whatever...but HUM vs CPU games are boring me now.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I wasn't trying to say tweaking sliders and ratings is not fun. I'm saying tweaking sliders and ratings is putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound when at the end of the day the core of the game is still flawed, the gameplay is still stale, the AI logic is still lacking, the player models are still stiff, the menus are still slow and hard to navigate, the game still freezes, stats still aren't recorded correctly, gimmicks still rule, online gamers still take precedent, special teams is still only worthy of a super sim, but the super sim is messed up too so...

My point is yes it's great to tweak ratings and have us all bond and share our experiences on what we see and learn from doing that, but at the end of the day none of that fixes the core elements of the game that have not worked right in years. For me I had to decide whether adjusting the BCV and AWR of a player and finding the joy in seeing the slight difference in gameplay is worth overlooking the fact that even if I gave that same player 99 BCV and 99 AWR he would still not run as instinctively as he should. He still won't run out of bounds to stop the clock during a 2 minute drill. He still won't try to cut it back to the inside when the defense over pursues him in the open field near the sideline. So for me the little that can be found in tweaking ratings cannot soften the blow of faulty AI logic and horible canned animations. That's all I'm saying and this is just how I feel about it.

[kingsofthevalley]

I agree with hansomehanz about not wanting GMS to work for EA. If he does that, he'll never be seen or heard from again. You all are aware of the guys who got positions at EA coming from here right? You might as well go ahead and put em on the back of an old school milk carton.

There were some who used to get very in depth with their write ups similar to GMS. Those guys got hired at EA and seemed to have forgotten that OS even exists. Dont get me wrong, I most definitely wasn't expecting any of them to give us page by page detail of the inner workings of the two titles, I vaguely understand NDA restrictions. However, I thought they would at the least breeze through a bit more since they sort of originated here you know.

[Phobia]

You guys make me so happy I could cry