NHL 09 Preview - Operation Sports Forums

NHL 09 Preview

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  • RealmK
    Banned
    • Sep 2003
    • 4199

    #46
    Re: NHL 09 Preview

    Originally posted by catcatch22
    See in my opinion ratings are not the problem, defense is. In all sports video games besides basketball and baseball. Defense in relation to time is not accurate. Defense is alot easier to play in Hockey for a NHL player than offense is. However in almost every hockey game I have played no one has made it that way for sake of keeping people from having to play 20 minute periods to score at a normal rate.

    The only thing that needs to be adjusted for hockey games is to make the players play better defensively and be worst offensively. However it's offense that sells.

    When you watch a game and see a highlight reel offensive move or pinpoint accurate pass lead to a scoring opportunity, it happens in a sea of several many possesions. In Football and Hockey games the possesions needed for success offensively is far less.

    In the old days there just wasn't much moves offensively you could do and defense was much easier to play. Most players were rated strictly based on offense.

    Now the games give the offense so high an advantage to give reaslistc results and scores in less time than a full 60 minute game in football or hockey.

    Too many players are rated to high offensively and too low defensively.
    Great post Cat. and I agree 100%. I expect the focus on defensive tools this year should make it easier to play defense on the whole, but I suspect that if the devs did something along the lines of making passes connecting much harder, a more looseness of the puck that can hop over sticks and make passing less tape to tape on the whole. It would make getting quality scoring chances that much harder.

    Its a fine line to cross trying to appeal to the casual base that makes up a majority of your sales who would hate the game that way, and us sim players who would relish it. I'd love to see them do it through sliders or at least have slider settings that really make a difference pending on which end of the bar its set to. Something like setting pass accuracy to zero would make it very difficult to make crisp passes when teammates aren't in open ice, as opposed to setting it on say 5 or 6 would add that magnetic puck to stick property for the casual guys that just want to play to score or what not.

    Though you are right, its much more difficult to carry over all the neuance's of real life hockey to the video game equivalent than it is some other sports.

    Comment

    • ianlast
      Rookie
      • Mar 2008
      • 451

      #47
      Re: NHL 09 Preview

      Originally posted by RealmK

      Its a fine line to cross trying to appeal to the casual base that makes up a majority of your sales who would hate the game that way, and us sim players who would relish it. I'd love to see them do it through sliders or at least have slider settings that really make a difference pending on which end of the bar its set to. Something like setting pass accuracy to zero would make it very difficult to make crisp passes when teammates aren't in open ice, as opposed to setting it on say 5 or 6 would add that magnetic puck to stick property for the casual guys that just want to play to score or what not.
      In this day and age of sports gaming, it still amazes me that there are no games that optimize the gameplay to suit period/quarter length.

      I know that you can't capture all the nuances of a 20 minute hockey game in video game form...but it can't be that hard to create gameplay that will deliver realistic stats and a gameplay flow that is appropriate for the corresponding period length. In NHL 08, for instance:

      5 minute periods: Basically, the default sliders. These tend to give very realistic stats for 5 minutes periods (save for the number of penalties called, they would have to make it much more sensitive in order to see the average 8-9 penalties called per game). Perfect for those who want a quick, arcadish style of game.

      10 minute periods: Look no further than Catch's sliders. These give extremely realistic numbers and overall gameplay flow for 10 minute periods. Only problem is hits, which tend to be a bit overdone (I usually have an average of about 45 hits/game on these sliders, CPU about the same, it should be more like 25). Simply develop more ways to jar the puck loose and make puck battles a bigger part of the game, and this problem disappears. Also, penalties would have to be more sensitive than they are currently with the slider maxed out.

      15 minute periods: Catch's sliders are good for overall game flow on 15. The tweaks would be in the areas that everyone has already discussed, namely: a) no more tape-to-tape passing b) no more insane puck retention by the CPU in the offensive zone, actually make it possible to engage the CPU in puck battles along the boards c) loosen up the overall puck retention by all but the very best stickhandlers.

      20 minute periods are still very much a pipe dream, unless you consciously play a sim style on lower difficulty and purposely pass up scoring opportunities.

      What frustrates me the most is that game developers obviously have the ability to work these nuances out. For instance, almost all NBA games nowadays, with minor slider tweaks, will deliver realistic FG%, FG attempts, and point scored on 12 minute quarters...why is it that we almost have to reprogram the game to get realistic foul totals and fewer dunks in traffic? Madden '05 delivered extremely realistic gameplay for 15 min quarters, accelerated clock...why did things as simple as a fatigue bug and non-existant PI calls have to mar this?

      I realize sports game developers are always trying to pander to non-sport gamers as well as their harcore followers, so it's always a balance...but how many newbie sports gamers will reject a game for reasons like "there's not enough hits", or "there's barely any dunks"?

      Anyway, my mini-rant is complete...all I can say is, it's great to be out of the dark days of NHL on the CG consoles :wink:
      Last edited by ianlast; 06-14-2008, 12:30 AM.

      Comment

      • Splitter77
        MVP
        • Mar 2003
        • 2820

        #48
        Re: NHL 09 Preview

        I understand the periods cant be changed by minutes again this year.
        How about playoff and season mode?
        Is that in the game this season?

        Comment

        • mkharsh33
          Hall Of Fame
          • Nov 2006
          • 12715

          #49
          Re: NHL 09 Preview

          ea sports...if it's in the game its...
          STEELERS INDIANS CELTICS

          Comment

          • Money99
            Hall Of Fame
            • Sep 2002
            • 12708

            #50
            Re: NHL 09 Preview

            Originally posted by ianlast
            True enough...but one of the things I loved about NHLPA '93 is that, if you had some plug rated in the 30s or 20s (the then-expansion Lightning and Sens had several in the 10s and single-digits ) out on the ice, you were forced to play more conservatively. You knew Mike Peluso and Link Gaetz would never score, so your best bet was to just hang back with these guys, and maybe pick some fights.

            With NHL 08, for all its great gameplay, I just never get that feeling. I play with the Wild alot, and I never feel that having Derek Boogaard out on the ice is a liability (which it is in real life). Heck, I've even scored some goals with him, just parking his fat *** in front of the net and feeding him a one-timer. In real life, Derek Boogaard is too ungainly to even keep up with the play and get in a position like this, much less fire off a onetime shot.
            That's one area that NHL2K8 blows 08 out of the water.
            Skating with a no-talent goon, compared to someone like Gaborik is night and day. It forces you to play a completely different style when lesser players are on the ice.

            And I believe I did read somewhere that the PA has blocked any NHL player from being rated a certain mark.

            Comment

            • baa7
              Banned
              • Jul 2004
              • 11695

              #51
              Re: NHL 09 Preview

              Originally posted by ianlast
              Interesting...so does this make it possible to play 15-20 minute periods with realistic stats?
              I've been trying, and I have held the CPU to 15 shots a period a few times.

              Here's what it does do: it allows people who are having trouble on Allstar, but find Pro too easy, to move up and play on Allstar. Lowering CPU aggression ratings keeps the CPU from going into berserker mode most of the time. And when it does, the lower Aggression, Speed, Agility and Deking ratings make sure the CPU doesn't completely overpower you.

              You get the Allstar-level CPU defensive aggression and checking (and penalties) which is lacking on Pro, but without a lot of the CPU berserker mode gameplay and cheats.

              Comment

              • Jgainsey
                I can't feel it
                • Mar 2007
                • 3359

                #52
                Re: NHL 09 Preview

                Originally posted by Money99
                That's one area that NHL2K8 blows 08 out of the water.
                Skating with a no-talent goon, compared to someone like Gaborik is night and day. It forces you to play a completely different style when lesser players are on the ice.

                And I believe I did read somewhere that the PA has blocked any NHL player from being rated a certain mark.
                If that's true it's a load of crap. What, are they afraid some rookie is gonna have his feelings hurt? Who are they to tell them how low to rate the players anyway? Besides, It's all relative to the way the game is programmed. If they were to design the game to play realistically with players rated all the way from 0 to 100 they shouldn't be able to tell EA otherwise. Anyways, that's how I feel about that... lol.
                Now, more than ever

                Comment

                • catcatch22
                  Or should I
                  • Sep 2003
                  • 3378

                  #53
                  Re: NHL 09 Preview

                  Originally posted by Splitter77
                  i remember there were players ranked in the 30s in nhl 92 and 93 for sega. Thats why those games were so damn good.
                  No disrespect but I don't want to play NHL 92 and 93. Ratings has nothing to do with the game its the game itself that has to adjusted.

                  If they came out with nhl 92 and 93 now it would be universaly crowned the worst game in years!

                  Comment

                  • RealmK
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2003
                    • 4199

                    #54
                    Re: NHL 09 Preview

                    Originally posted by baa7
                    I've been trying, and I have held the CPU to 15 shots a period a few times.

                    Here's what it does do: it allows people who are having trouble on Allstar, but find Pro too easy, to move up and play on Allstar. Lowering CPU aggression ratings keeps the CPU from going into berserker mode most of the time. And when it does, the lower Aggression, Speed, Agility and Deking ratings make sure the CPU doesn't completely overpower you.

                    You get the Allstar-level CPU defensive aggression and checking (and penalties) which is lacking on Pro, but without a lot of the CPU berserker mode gameplay and cheats.
                    The solution is just to play on superstar to begin with but I digress.

                    Comment

                    • baa7
                      Banned
                      • Jul 2004
                      • 11695

                      #55
                      Re: NHL 09 Preview

                      Originally posted by RealmK
                      The solution is just to play on superstar to begin with but I digress.
                      Nope, CPU cheats above Pro.

                      Comment

                      • phillyfan23
                        MVP
                        • Feb 2005
                        • 2300

                        #56
                        Re: NHL 09 Preview

                        Originally posted by baa7
                        Nope, CPU cheats above Pro.
                        nah, superstar level never cheated me.

                        Comment

                        • RealmK
                          Banned
                          • Sep 2003
                          • 4199

                          #57
                          Re: NHL 09 Preview

                          Originally posted by baa7
                          Nope, CPU cheats above Pro.
                          no no it doesn't, It adapts to what you do, learns, and changes its plays and strategies over the course of a game. If I can go on a 10 game win streak with sim settings on superstar, ie shot accuracy 1, shot power 2, and the cpu learing and aggression maxed etc., the ai is certainly not cheating. Littman has even said numerous times that there is zero catch up logic in 08. Some people just refuse to adapt and change their strategy when the ai learns to shut them down.

                          Dump it in and forecheck, play solid defense, (yes I realize its difficult but it CAN be done) and don't just skate into the zone and shoot or one timer it, work it around, make some create a plays etc and switch it up.

                          It also drives me crazy when people complain about the scoring in the game, I get varied goal totals for both user and cpu, my last 4 games were a 2-0 loss, a 3-1 win, a 5-2 win, and a 4-1 win. I've had games where the cpu blows me out 5-0, games where I'm down 2 goals in the 3rd and tie it to go to overtime or a shootout. I honestly believe the people who have such a hard time scoring aren't looking or making good scoring chances happen. Look for a screen to develop, crash the net after a point shot, throw an extra toe drag in your deke, all viable ways to score that work.

                          Comment

                          • phillyfan23
                            MVP
                            • Feb 2005
                            • 2300

                            #58
                            Re: NHL 09 Preview

                            Originally posted by RealmK
                            no no it doesn't, It adapts to what you do, learns, and changes its plays and strategies over the course of a game. If I can go on a 10 game win streak with sim settings on superstar, ie shot accuracy 1, shot power 2, and the cpu learing and aggression maxed etc., the ai is certainly not cheating. Littman has even said numerous times that there is zero catch up logic in 08. Some people just refuse to adapt and change their strategy when the ai learns to shut them down.

                            Dump it in and forecheck, play solid defense, (yes I realize its difficult but it CAN be done) and don't just skate into the zone and shoot or one timer it, work it around, make some create a plays etc and switch it up.

                            It also drives me crazy when people complain about the scoring in the game, I get varied goal totals for both user and cpu, my last 4 games were a 2-0 loss, a 3-1 win, a 5-2 win, and a 4-1 win. I've had games where the cpu blows me out 5-0, games where I'm down 2 goals in the 3rd and tie it to go to overtime or a shootout. I honestly believe the people who have such a hard time scoring aren't looking or making good scoring chances happen. Look for a screen to develop, crash the net after a point shot, throw an extra toe drag in your deke, all viable ways to score that work.
                            great post realm....

                            gamers are a fickle bunch.....it's hard to be a sports developper these days. You make the hardest level too easy like it is in the show people complain....now nhl 08 comes out and gives us the PERFECT difficulty where you need to learn the game to succeed...people will automatically bash the game because the cpu cheats....

                            some people just can't accept the fact that a human made A.I can dominate them in sports games.

                            Comment

                            • baa7
                              Banned
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 11695

                              #59
                              Re: NHL 09 Preview

                              Originally posted by phillyfan23
                              great post realm....

                              gamers are a fickle bunch.....it's hard to be a sports developper these days. You make the hardest level too easy like it is in the show people complain....now nhl 08 comes out and gives us the PERFECT difficulty where you need to learn the game to succeed...people will automatically bash the game because the cpu cheats....

                              some people just can't accept the fact that a human made A.I can dominate them in sports games.
                              Get of the pedestal, please. My god, what flaming rubbish, LOL.

                              Comment

                              • catcatch22
                                Or should I
                                • Sep 2003
                                • 3378

                                #60
                                Re: NHL 09 Preview

                                Originally posted by baa7
                                Get of the pedestal, please. My god, what flaming rubbish, LOL.
                                It's not rubbish, there are some people who are at a certain skill level and can handle the supposed cheating AI. While their are others such as yourself who refuses to play better when the AI falls behind and tries to score.

                                When I fall behind I do the same, take more shots be more aggressive, change my strategy to be less defense and more offense. That is what the AI does. You see it when you score and take a 2 goal lead, the AI changes it's strategy to aggressive or all out attack in order to get back in the game. This is your cue to clog up the middle and play aggressive D in your zone.

                                Unfortunately most people just don't want to adjust.

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