New Tuner set is BAD

[IBYCFOTA]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

Threads like this pain me. We put a lot of effort into figuring out what changes to make and making them and no matter what we do some people blame anything the don't like on the tuning and demand that we revert the changes. The things people are seeing here are NOT the tuning. Perhaps your online opponents have perfected their play a bit, I don't know, but unless the problems relate to the specific things listed in the notes it has nothing to do with the tuning.

I didn't play many games online before the aforementioned tuner so I can't say if I agree with the people here one way or the other, but it definitely seems like a placebo effect going around. When somebody expects a change they start believing things are different based on their experience regardless if those changes actually took place - that's just the way humans are wired.

With that said, I do agree with the sentiment that goalies are becoming pretty difficult to beat legitimately. The EA devs always seem to hammer home in their advertising that "no game is the same" and that "anything can happen", but sometimes it doesn't feel that way at all, and it goes back to the lack of goal variety. Not only does this make the game more predictable and stale, but it also encourages players to gameplan around "go to goals" rather than playing the game legit which in turn makes the game frustrating and less enjoyable. Honestly, the goalies in 09 were really balanced for Versus. When I outchanced my opponents badly the score usually reflected it, and I didn't need to do so with the use of cheap goals.

Redshirt, what do you think about the possibility of adding in human goalies to Versus games as a duo? By that I mean one player controls the skaters and the other controls the goaltender and they play against another team of two with the same. It could even be a whole other game mode. I mean, just think about how many people whine about the AI goalies in Versus, whether it be about how they are too hard to score on, too easy to glitch, etc. etc. In OTP you can get around this with authentic 6v6 play, but there is nothing similar for Versus. Add in the element of human goaltenders there as well and it will make the mode a million times more enjoyable. I would bet a lot of money that it would be a huge success, and I personally would probably play nothing else.

[kerosene31]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

Scoring in the EASHL without some sort of boost pack or a good number of points is very tough. I've played with the same bunch of guys since NHL09 and I know they are solid scorers. My d-man with a boost pack can score on slap shots realistically. If I jump in the slot and blast one it has a chance of going in. My teammate who is an overall 70 can't score on anything except for garbage goals.

Other teams that have better attributes can score easily though. It isn't the goalies, but when you are low level you just can't score. We went through the same thing last year. I remember lots of boring 1-0 games until people started getting higher cards.

Offline I have no problem scoring with a slap shot from the point with my defensive d-man. Point shots should almost never go in anyway unless there's a screen/tip/etc. If I pinch into the slot my shooting percentage seems fine. Far from automatic, but I don't have a problem with the goalies.

[yubfuzz]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

I undertand these treads pain you but something has changed. And with that change, team based hockey went out the window.

EASHL prior to new tuner, in 33 games I had 42 points.

Since the new tuner, 20 games, 6 points.

There is no longer any benefit to setting up plays. There was a logic based in teamplay that generated success for the teams who moved the puck around. Now we have soft rebounds sitting in front of goalies again and people tooling around with the puck like it is NHL 10. The variety of goals has been shrunk to 3 differnt kinds.

The move away form the NHL 10 gameplay in the first tuner was awesome. People who worked the puck around benefitted while the danglers/1 man shows players suffered. I saw it in my own club.

Now, with this tuner we are back to dangling all over again. It baffles me how a team based game gets one man show gameplay. You had the team game figured out before the implementation of the latest tuner.

Be it the tuner or whatever, something changed in the onlline EASHL gameplay on the day the new tuner was released. I don't want to play semantics games, I just want you to see that you've taken all the excitement out of a game that was overflowing with excitiment during the first week.

Regardless of the pain, you must see there is no way the current EASHL online game comes anywhere near to replicating the ebb/flow/excitiement of what you had with the first tuner set.

[ch46647]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

My only two real gripes is that the poke check needs to be more effective. Also, the stick lift needs to be tuned down a little bit. Other then that I think this game is golden.

[Skullduggery]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

It does feel different with the new tuner set but I'm happy that it's hard to score, and I play nothing but defense. I don't get as many goals but you can still cycle the puck, take chances, and hope for a juicy rebound. Low scoring hard fought games are fun. The game seems really realistic to me with this tuner set. The high percentage goals are after dekes in close range to the goal... which would happen in the NHL.

EA is doing a good job. I'm sure there are more tweaks that can be made though.

Play some 6v6. Human goalies are fun ;-)

[Redshirt_EA]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

The reason everyone gets frustrated is because year after year cycling and trying to set up plays is not nearly as successful as using the left stick to just stop, start, and wiggle your way to the net. Point shots are useless.

I hear what you're saying but whether these things were touched by the tuner set or not, they need to be addressed IMO.

This is reasonable commentary.

The problem is people claiming that everything has changed when it hasn't. It is inevitable that there will be a thread like this one demanding that we roll back ANY tuning update that is made. I could accept that if it was because they just didn't like what was changed, but it is hardly productive when their problems are with things that weren't changed. If I make more changes to address your requests (because we've assessed the situation and agree with them) that will inevitably spark another round of hysteria by someone.

I can see this all leading to one of two places:
1) Tuning updates are infeasible because some people cannot avoid attributing anything they see that they don't like to the tuning (whether it was changed or not) and so reject any change. We stop doing updates.
2) (1) is true but we continue making tuning updates anyway. To avoid going insane we ignore feedback that veers off course.

I'd really like to find another resolution, but I'm not sure the psychological and social dynamics will accommodate.

[Redshirt_EA]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

I undertand these treads pain you but something has changed. And with that change, team based hockey went out the window.

EASHL prior to new tuner, in 33 games I had 42 points.

Since the new tuner, 20 games, 6 points.

There is no longer any benefit to setting up plays. There was a logic based in teamplay that generated success for the teams who moved the puck around. Now we have soft rebounds sitting in front of goalies again and people tooling around with the puck like it is NHL 10. The variety of goals has been shrunk to 3 differnt kinds.

The move away form the NHL 10 gameplay in the first tuner was awesome. People who worked the puck around benefitted while the danglers/1 man shows players suffered. I saw it in my own club.

Now, with this tuner we are back to dangling all over again. It baffles me how a team based game gets one man show gameplay. You had the team game figured out before the implementation of the latest tuner.

Be it the tuner or whatever, something changed in the onlline EASHL gameplay on the day the new tuner was released. I don't want to play semantics games, I just want you to see that you've taken all the excitement out of a game that was overflowing with excitiment during the first week.

Regardless of the pain, you must see there is no way the current EASHL online game comes anywhere near to replicating the ebb/flow/excitiement of what you had with the first tuner set.

As long as you understand exactly what was changed. Push puck, shots from the goal line and slap shots in close. If you think those specific things ruined then ok, you don't like the tuning update.

Anything else and it is something else causing it. Maybe the honeymoon period has passed, maybe people have adjusted to the game and are playing it differently, I don't know.

There will be more tuning. I'm not happy with the game balance right now and there are a bunch of things we'd like to improve. When we do I just hope people can focus on the things in the tuning notes if they want to give feedback. We aren't making secret changes or trying to fool anyone, and tuning updates aren't mysteriously causing changes in random systems.

[stew514]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

This is reasonable commentary.

The problem is people claiming that everything has changed when it hasn't. It is inevitable that there will be a thread like this one demanding that we roll back ANY tuning update that is made. I could accept that if it was because they just didn't like what was changed, but it is hardly productive when their problems are with things that weren't changed. If I make more changes to address your requests (because we've assessed the situation and agree with them) that will inevitably spark another round of hysteria by someone.

I can see this all leading to one of two places:
1) Tuning updates are infeasible because (some?) people cannot avoid attributing anything they see that they don't like to the tuning (whether it was changed or not) and so reject any change. We stop doing updates.
2) (1) is true but we continue making tuning updates anyway. To avoid going insane we ignore feedback that veers off course.

I'd really like to find another resolution, but I'm not sure the psychological and social dynamics will accommodate.

I understand where you are coming from, because you are never going to please everyone. Ideally the game gets to a point where goalies (human and AI) are helpless if guys are left open to shoot below the circles, or if they have traffic. People will still complain because like you said the social dynamics.

To give you my input I see a few main flaws with the game right now

- it's too easy to control the puck without using the deking system. Just by using the A button and the LS you can avoid losing the puck w/out suffering much of a speed loss.

-Goalies (human or AI) don't get beat by the speed of a shot, you have to put it around them. This is a huge problem with Human goalies because what you see them do is put their goalie at 6'4" and sit on their goal line. The only get beat by shots in tight, which means teams will just collapse the area within the crease because anything from further then that their goalie can suck up. AI goalies have a flaw in positioning which makes them a bit easier to score on, but again you have to go around them. You can't beat them short side ever because of their reactions.

-Kind of an add on to the previous point, but human and AI goalies seem to have no trouble with a screen or deflection. I was farting around with a few teamates in practice mode where we put 1 or 2 guys in front of our goalie, now we did this to a point where he couldn't possibly see the puck, and his goalie was making reaction saves. At the very least goalies should be forced to use manual saves if there is any sort of traffic, because in real hockey there are a lot of goals where the goalies don't even react because they can't see the puck. Putting this into the game would also make deflections more of a scoring chance because using the RS to make saves opens up more holes on a goalie, so obviously if a goalie goes down into the butterfly and a low shot is deflected high, it's either going to hit him in the chest or it's going to go in.

[stew514]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

As long as you understand exactly what was changed. Push puck, shots from the goal line and slap shots in close. If you think those specific things ruined then ok, you don't like the tuning update.

Anything else and it is something else causing it. Maybe the honeymoon period has passed, maybe people have adjusted to the game and are playing it differently, I don't know.

There will be more tuning. I'm not happy with the game balance right now and there are a bunch of things we'd like to improve. When we do I just hope people can focus on the things in the tuning notes if they want to give feedback. We aren't making secret changes or trying to fool anyone, and tuning updates aren't mysteriously causing changes in random systems.

What specifically was changed with the push puck, when the game came out I thought it was pretty solid because it would put you about even with a defender who was hustling to catch you. Now it just seems like every time you push the puck to try and get that extra burst to the outside, the other player just picks the puck up.

[Redshirt_EA]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

What specifically was changed with the push puck, when the game came out I thought it was pretty solid because it would put you about even with a defender who was hustling to catch you. Now it just seems like every time you push the puck to try and get that extra burst to the outside, the other player just picks the puck up.

The speed and acceleration it gives you was reduced considerably. This wasn't really done because we wanted to, but because there was an exploit related to push puck that allowed you to get the benefits of it without the negatives. You can still use puck puck and hustle in combination to get more or less the same result as before.

Even though the change was forced by the existence of an exploit I'm actually pretty happy with the end result. Push puck has always bothered me a bit because there's nothing inherent about pushing the puck ahead that would make you faster than someone without the puck. Now pushing it ahead just takes away the speed/acceleration penalties that go along with carrying the puck, and puts the puck ahead with might be advantageous in avoiding a poke or stick lift. It is definitely more realistic now.

[Lubey]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

The reason everyone gets frustrated is because year after year cycling and trying to set up plays is not nearly as successful as using the left stick to just stop, start, and wiggle your way to the net. Point shots are useless.

This is my least favorite part about the game by far. Players in EASHL constantly starting and stopping until they eventually get to the front for a shot. Worst part is it's nearly impossible to catch them as a defenseman.

[NHLandPESFan]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

I haven't played as much as others (10 ranked online versus games, I am 7-3) but I agree with a common complaint that it is just too hard to score. I looked at my stats and the average score in my game is me winning 2.3-1, which means there are only about 3 total goals per game, I know the NHL average is typically somewhere around 5.8-6. Good opportunities that should go in just don't seem to go in very often so everyone relies on dekes which makes for a less realistic game. I don't know what the average goals per game is for all players in ranked online play but I would encourage EA to tune the goalies so it ends up in the 5.8-6 NHL range instead of the soccer scorelines that are prevalent now. In fact I would bet EA a Molson 6 pack that the scorelines in the first month of FIFA 11 will be higher than the first month of NHL 11.

[stew514]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

Redshirt do you know when we can expect another tuner update? Also can you give us any details as to what we can expect to see addressed in the near future?


thanks

[yubfuzz]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

As long as you understand exactly what was changed. Push puck, shots from the goal line and slap shots in close. If you think those specific things ruined then ok, you don't like the tuning update.

Anything else and it is something else causing it. Maybe the honeymoon period has passed, maybe people have adjusted to the game and are playing it differently, I don't know.

There will be more tuning. I'm not happy with the game balance right now and there are a bunch of things we'd like to improve. When we do I just hope people can focus on the things in the tuning notes if they want to give feedback. We aren't making secret changes or trying to fool anyone, and tuning updates aren't mysteriously causing changes in random systems.

I appreiciate the reply. I have read about and know the things that were changed in the tuner, and have a something for you in that respect.

With the reduction in the effectiveness of push puck it seems like there is less "room" on the ice. By less "room" I mean in terms of the openings it created in the computer skater defense and options for the player to move the puck. By eliminating those options that the push puck speed afforded you, the overall team gameplay aspect has suffered, in my opinion.

With fewer passing options, it becomes harder to keep the puck alive in the offensive zone and the scoring opportunities that presented themselves previously, are no longer available.

With the previous push puck speed, I didn't notice people blowing by defensemen and streaking in on the net one on one with the goalie. Instead, I saw wingers taking the play wide with passing options behind the net, or to the point.

Are the computer skaters affected by using hustle? It seemed like the extra push puck speed casued the Computer skater defenders to hustle and tire them out. Thus leading to comptuer skaters out of position/opening lanes/and adding some randomness in the game I hadn't seen before. Perhaps that extra speed was enabling us to catch the computer at of position at times?

If that was the case, I would like to see the reintroduction of the previous push puck speed with the bug/exploit that was in there fixed. I know you feel it is more realistic now and with "more or less" the same results as before with the push puck/hustle combo but I disagree. I feel you had a nice randomness/user skill balance with the previous push puck speed. And changing it has brought about a game wide flow change, for the worse.

[Juiceman612]

Re: New Tuner set is BAD

Consider my thoughts to mimic yubfuzz exactly.

I'd add, there are so many interactions happening in this game that I don't see how it's so easy (Redshirt) to dismiss the idea that what was changed in the tuner affected other areas of gameplay like setting up plays and having a lot more trouble scoring. You are saying you tuned "shots from the goal line and slap shots in close". That is a complete separate event that would not affect the change is shooting from any other spot like say a wrist shot near the goal line but with a good angle? (like bottom of the circle or whatever).

I just find it really hard to believe that you made a tuner adjustment and all these people commenting on the gameplay since the tuner are just flat out wrong since you didn't tune what people are complaining about. It just seems like there would be more cause and effect to other portions of the game with tuners updates than what you are allowing us to believe - which I am comprehending as goalies were not tuned so skaters can score just as easy as before. I find it hard to take in, but I am ignorant in terms of computer programming.