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NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

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Old 06-01-2016, 10:51 AM   #1
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NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

It is all about STAND UP Striking mechanics, not about Clinch/Ground Striking which is OK as I think.

Current Stand up Striking mechanics is the most complaining issue of the game EA UFC 1-2. Here is an idea how to change it.

I tried to make a HYBRID of proved fighting mechanics and realism.

This can be as a base for EA UFC 3 or if devs decided can to try to implement some of this elements in EA UFC 2 by patches.

Thesis: I. take the main striking concept of the most 3D fighting games + II. bring more realism (fight sim) to it.

This thread created for: 1. Gather community feedback and ideas about NEW Striking for EA UFC, and 2. To make a final compilation, which IS possible to create by devs in EA UFC 3.

I. STRIKING CONCEPT:
The best example is Virtua Fighter, one of the most deep and technical fighting game:
http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/attacks/
Example of Frame data in Virtua fighter:
http://virtuafighter.com/commands/li...sa&chara=akira


Attack Phases


An attack transitions through three phases from start to end. The duration of each phase is measured in frames. The game runs at 60 frames per second, so knowing this it is possible to calculate how fast, in real time, something occurs. But, the absolute speed of something isn't particularly interesting. What is interesting, is how fast one thing is compared to another. Thus, frames are used as a unit of measure by which we can compare. This will all become apparent later.

For now, you just need to know that our smallest unit of measurement is one frame (1f). If Event A takes 5 frames to complete, and Event B takes 10 frames, then we know that Event A is faster than Event B (twice as fast, in fact). Let's not digress any further, and get back to the topic of Attack Phases.

The Attack Phases are illustrated in the chart below, which represents the anatomy of a basic attack.




Start Up

When you press , a punch is initiated and it takes some time for the arm to fully extend and hit. This time it takes from the start up until the first frame hit detection is known as the Start Up . Generally, the Start Up frames for an attack have no practical application. More commonly, though, we refer to the Execution of the attack. It's a subtle difference which is explained in the next section.
Execution

In the VFDC Command Lists the Execution speed of every attack (if known) is provided in the Exe column.
The chart above shows 11 frames of Start Up for the punch. But this actually represents a punch that executes in 12 frames, and we more commonly refer to this as a 12 frame punch. Why isn't this an 11 frame punch? The answer is because hit detection doesn't begin until the 12th frame where the attack becomes Active. So, simply referring to the 11 frames where nothing has really happened yet doesn't mean much to anyone. We're only interested in when something happens, on the very next frame.



The simple relationship between Execution and Start Up is:
Execution = Start Up + 1

It's a subtle, but important detail, especially when you're analysing the frame data.
Active

In the VFDC Command Lists the duration of the Active phase of every attack (if known) is provided in the Act column.
When a punch has fully extended, hit detection usually lasts for a small amount of frames, typically 1 or 2. This is commonly known as the Active phase, during which time the opponent can be either hit by, guard, or even reverse the attack.



The chart above shows 2 Active frames.
Recovery

When the hit phase ends, the punching arm begins to retract until the entire attack has ceased and the player is free to move again. This final phase is known as the Recovery.



The chart above shows 14 frames of Recovery .

The duration of the Recovery phase is not usually documented as it has little, to no, practical value. However, you can calculate the Recovery of an attack if you know the durations for Execution, Active and Total phases:
Recovery = Total - Execution - Active + 1

In the chart above, 27 (total) - 12 (execution) - 2 (active) + 1 = 14 frames.
Total

In the VFDC Command Lists the Total duration of every attack (if known) is provided in the Tot column.
The length of the entire attack, from start to end.



The chart above shows an attack with a total of 27 frames.

Basic Attack Analysis

This section will briefly look into cases where Player 1 and Player 2 are executing attacks at around the same time, and the factors that determine which attack will succeed. Basically, when opponents execute attacks near the same time, and within range of each other, the attack that reaches the Active phase first will win.
Active First Wins

Consider an example where Player 1 and 2 attack at the same time:



Player 1's attack wins because it's faster. That is, it reaches the Active phase first and therefore is said to Execute faster than Player 2's attack. So even if Player 1 attacks after Player 2 (1 frame later to be exact), Player 1's attack still wins because it becomes active first due to its faster execution.


Attack Trades

The rules for attack trades is what makes 'crushing' a rising attack possible!
What happens when two attacks reach their active phase at the same time? In this example, Player 1 attacks two frames later than Player 2 such that both attacks become active on the same frame.



The rule for when two attacks collide, or trade, at the same time is as follows:
  • The attack that does the highest damage wins.
  • If the damage is equal, then the attack with the slower execution wins.
  • If the damage and execution are equal, then the player with 50 pts life less than the opponent wins.
  • Otherwise, you'll get a double hit.
For the specific example shown here, Player 2 would win since all attacks do more damage than .

HIT EFFECTS:
Major counter hit – Hit opponent on his Execution phase (large dmg bonus)
Minor counter hit – Hit opponent on his Recovery phase (small dmg bonus)
STUN – when you are in stun, you ca not move (can not to make strike, grappling moves, even blocking).
Guard stun - Period of time after one blocks an incoming attack during which he can not move. Normally your guard stun will end before the attacker is still in recovery.
Hit stun - Period of time after you are hit during which you can not move.

Do you know what is the most frustrating thing now in Strand up Striking in EA UFC 1-2? - RANDOMNESS!
Because we dont have Hit stun at all after first 1--3 strikes and at the same time we have strike interruption from hit on its initial state.
Explanation:
1P perform a combo:
1P starts Jab, which is clear landed (clear hit, not blocked) on 2P > then 1P starts Straight with clear hit too > then 1P launches his 3rd powerful strike... but 2P immediately after getting 2nd hit launches his strike, and as he dont have Hit stun his strike launches w/o hit stun delay, i.e. during 1P 2nd strike recovery phase (hand is coming back to initial state and ready fr 3rd strike) > 1P launches his 3rd strike, but at this moment 2P's strike hits him and crushes (interrupt) his 3rd strike causing interrupt stun and breaking 1P successful series...
I in other words, i can not to plan my series, setups because of unpredictable crushing.
In EA UFC 1-2 ONLY FBHR (full body hit reaction) causes real Hit stun during which the opponent can not launch a strikem but FBHR is caused only by huge damage (on 3rd+ strike boosted by CM, Counter window, etc).
Result: stand up striking in EA UFC 1-2 = closing in w hoping for luck in not crushed series until FBHR = randomness, no depth and strategy!
How it should be:
2P get Hit stun (strike disadvantage) - i.e. his strike will be delayed because of it > but he could to block immediately to regain Striking advantage > 2P block 1P strike so 2P strike will be launched earlier.
I.e. 2P when getting hits must to think about defense not about striking! In EA UFC 2P starts his strike - and get success by crushing opponent's fast strikes, nonsense!


Every strike consists from 3 follow up stages:
1. startup
2. hit phase
3. recovery phase - yr leg returns back after hit
You can not to Block during all 3 phases until ends of recovery phase.
Animations of some kicks are very long, so be careful
The main problem of the game now - is that even after getting Hit (w/o Full body hit reaction i.e. "hit stun") an opponent can launch his strike IMMEDIATELY and this strike will be GUARANTEED because it lands during yr recovery phase when yr are helpless.
This is the terrible ISSUE of the current striking mechanics, which must ti be fixed in EA UFC 3.
> If you successfully land ANY strike you NEVER can not be getting hit during this your strike Recovery phase. This is the rule!

BALANCE (Rock-Paper-Scissors):
Strike beats Clinch/TD attempts if landed
Block beats Strike
Clinch/TD attempt beats Block.


__________________________________________________ _____________
II. HOW TO transform this mechanic to FIGHTING SIMULATION GAME with more realism:

1) Make Framedata ANALOG – i.e. framedata of strikes will be dynamically changing depends on: Stamina, fighter’s conditions (health), ratings, situation (Combo multiplier is increasing Strike startup after prev strike clear hit).
Example: my Hook has 20F (frames) startup in normal, and becomes slower (more F startup) proportionally to stamina level (on 50% stamina becomes 25F, on 10% 28F). So the player will not count frames like in arcade fightings but will intuitively sense/predict it.

What is the main difference between Arcade and Sim fightings, except Juggle combos? - in Arcade fightings frame data of the moves is CONSTANT which is unreal in changing real life conditions (stamina, current health condition, how accented/clear the strike was landed, short & long reach, etc).
But the striking principes in arcade fighting are realistic and deep.
So, all we need as i wrote is to make moves' frame data dynamically changing, depending on the "real life conditions" ((stamina, current health condition, how accented/clear the strike was landed, short & long reach, etc).
This will bring REALISM in right and deep arcade fightings principes, you (human, not CPU game system) will not be able to know mathematically accurateframe data of your move because it is changing accross many irl factors, but as you know its principes you can predict very close its approximate frame data, so you can predict it results approximately and you can to plan your strategy more consciously.
Devs can implement this into the game by special formulas which will count real-time dynamic frame data > then the striking becomes TRULY BASED on real life PHYSICS, w/o damage to the gameplay.


2) STRIKING ADVANTAGE (SA):
Devs, you brought Grapple advantage (new Grappling system is awesome and the best ever made), so now we need the similar Striking advantage!

I land a clear hit: opponent is in Hit stun for ex -10F. My SA is +10F, i.e. my next move (strike/GM, Block) will launch 10F earlier than opponent’s move and will hit him earlier.

My strike was blocked: opponent will have an advantage because of my Guard stun+Recovery phase for ex +5F, i.e. after block my move will be 5F earlier than opponent’s.

My strike was whiffed/missed: opponent will have an huge +20 advantage because he does not get Guard stun but I need to recover my strike back, i.e. after his whiff my move will be 20F earlier. My Hook is 20F startup, so he will be guaranteed punish w/o block possibility.

Sway, Dodge/Side step does not give SA by itself but they provoke opponent to whiff, and his whiff give us SA.
Defensive fighter get more SA from whiffed opponent's strikes (by Dodge or Sway) than just successful Blocking. But successful Parry will give even more SA than whiff because Parry causes a disbalance also to opponent. More SA = more vulnerability to attacks for opponent (b/c of his immobility).

SA coefficient - determines the degree/level of SA in the game; can be calibrated by SA slider in gameplay settings:
- Arcade setting (left SA slider position) = minimal SA = minimal (lowest) SA coefficient for all frame advantage/disadvantage situations (i.e. less frame advantage after landing hit or frame disadvantage after whiff)
- SIM setting (right slider position) = maximal SA = maximal (highest) SA coefficient for all frame advantage/disadvantage situations (i.e. more frame advantage after landing hit or frame disadvantage after whiff


3) CRUSHING (Stopping power):
In arcade fightings almost all strikes which hit opponent on his startup strike will crush / stop his strike regardless of its strength.
In UFC you can make ANALOG strike crushing: when one strike #1 landed on other #2 strike's startup (starting strike), system is counting FINAL DAMAGE of both strikes and if #1 strike final damage is >0.8 of strike #2 final damage - starting strike #2 will be stopped, if <0.8 - starting strike #2 will not be stopped but a bit weakened by misleading, <0.3 - no effect at all (ex, no effect by Jab on Superman punch).
Every strike’ final damage is changing analog/dynamically. Strike final DAMAGE depends on:
- my Stamina
- opponent’s Stamina (less Stamina – more damage & Full body hit reaction FBHR)
- not depends on my striking limb’s Health
- final total Strike damage depends on additional Damage bonus from: 1. Combo multiplier (CM) 2. Counter window 3. Physics driven damage with the right timing (when opponent is moving toward my strike).
> So, begin your move when you have striking advantage, Don’t begin your move but go to defense Blocking when you at striking disadvantage.

Both strike are hitting at the same time:
Wins those strike which has more final dmg.
Strike w higher final damage crushes (intercept, stopped) opponent's strike.
Which SA i recieve then?
- More final dmg = more SA = more hit stun = more "struggling" animation that illustrates this hit stun (more stumble).
If both strikes hits at the same time - which will win? the game calculates by this algorithm:
1st step-The move with the higher damage wins (i.e. crushing the other strike).
2nd step-IF both moves have the same damage, THEN the slower move wins (larger startup)
3rd step-IF both moves have same damage and same speed, THEN the player with less health wins (as a "last chance" gameplay help).
4th step-IF everything is the same, THEN both players are hit at the same time.
Combo continues - only in 4th step. Otherwise, the strike will be crushed (interrupted) and combo stops.

Why not both hits each other (4th step to 1st place):
Example: 1p landed 1st Hit, 2 Hit and is going to end his combo by powerful slow strike which was set upped by previous 2 (build Striking advantage) , but the opponent did weak quick strike and reset his job if hit at the same time, instead of defending. It will break the gameplay.
It also bad in real life physics- more stronger strike (more kinetic energy) dominates over weak strike when at the same time. Otherwise, it break realism.
Pay attention! I am talking about the strikes which are HIT each other at the same time:
1P with 10 frames Striking advantage (+10) throw a powerful strike with 20 frames startup, 3 frames hot phase, then 30 frames recovery, the opponent 2p throws weak 10 frames startup frames, 1 hit phase and 15 recovery. They both hits each other at the same time on 11th frame - 1p will crush (stop) 2p strike with counter bonus.
Keep in mind that both hits at the same time is very RARE situations. For other situations - ANALOG crushing.

For Striking EXCHANGE - we have ANALOG crushing, when the crushed strike is misleading and weakening but not stop at all, depending on crushing/crushed strike damages. I am sure this is much more realistic and gameplay balanced way to make strike exchange.

The final dmg determines which strike will crush another strike.

Roundhouse kick on Low stamina: slower startup and recovery, the same Hit phase, lower dmg
Interrupting Hook on High stamina: normal fast startup, high dmg.
Resulting damage Hook > weakened Kick = Fighter w Kick is struggled.

Quick Jab wiill be too weak to crush Roundhouse kick (<0.3 for ex) so no Momentum conflict. Hook is enough powerful strike to revert Kick's momentum.

Btw, we can create a system when crushing (interrupting) feature ALSO depends on how close oponent's strike is to its execution end:
- less final damage difference between 2 strikes (both has identical momentum = more length of his opponent's strike execution phase vulnerable to be crushed (Hook beats Hook even when landed on its nearly completed exe phase b/c they both have equal momentum).
- More final damage difference between 2 strikes (different momentum) = less line segment of his exe phase vulnerable to be crushed (my Hook may crush opponent powerful Kick even if has more dmg but only if landed on Kick's early exe phase while Kick has low/weak momentum weak amplitude).
This system (final damage advanatge plus right moment to land on his exe phase) is more deep and difficult than Crushing based ONLY on final damage advantage.


The most important element in all fightings - CRUSHING, i.e. your strike crushes/stops the opponent's strike on its execution (startup) phase which allow you to counter cross opponent's spam. it becomes possible when:
- i have Striking advantage over the opponent (my action will start earlier and then land sooner than his)
- some my strike has evasive properties (for ex ducking strikes), so the opponent;s strike is landing earlier but is missing above me.

In EA UFC 1-2 now as it seems to me there are no real crushing at all, because receiving hit on my startup does not stop my strike (aka "No stopping power"). Just check gifs in this thread:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...a-ufc-2-a.html

But sometimes 1st opponent's strike interrupts my 2nd follow up strike (boosted by CM after 1st hit) and iterrupts my combo. We heard " Strike intercept – Strikes landed within the opponents initial wind up phase of a strike will halt the opponent from completing their strike".

This "interrupting" is unstable and not reliable.
Why?
Because there are NO HIT STUNS! So, as a results there are no strike advantage/disadvantage.
Listen up:
I successfully landed my 1st strike (hit), then land my 2nd strike (hit), then i "wind up" my 3rd strike powerful strike (boosted by CM for huge dmg)....
.... the opponent just strike me on 3rd strike initial phase and INTERRUPTS my combo! ... the opponent, who received TWO clear hits must to be hit stunned (strike disadvanatge) and THE ONLY option, which must to be possible to him must to be a DEFENSE (by Block, step, bwd dash, sway) ,but not attack by strike!
.....the opponent's by button mashing/spamming strikes interrupts my combo and break my plan and strategy.
So, there are NO MORE STRATEGY in stand up game because every planned combo can be "interrupted" by the opponent, w/o Hit stuns.

Implemented by GCs "interrupting strikes" feature in early patch is useless w/o hit stuns ans Striking advantage.

= this is the MAIN ISSUE OF THE CURRENT STAND UP STRIKING =


How to solve this:

- implement Hit stuns after every landed hit, hitstun's effect depends on hit's dmg
- implement Striking advantage (after dealing hit, successful evade or block) and Striking disadvantage (afterreceiving hit, failed evade, missed/blocked my strike).
More details here:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...scussions.html



2P perform Strike with Execution 30F.
1P blocked this strike and gain SA +10F, it means that his next move will be 10F earlier than 2P.
2P then immediately while on -10F (strike disadvantage) launch Strike (Spinning kick) with 30F execution, instead of going to defense and Block incoming punish (b/c he is a "button spinning kick masher" he dont pay attention to his SA status, not hit checking).

> 1P launching his Punish attack strike while he is +10F (strike advantage).
Lets discuss how is BETTER to be for gameplay in this situation when 2 strikes are coming to each other (Stopping power, intercepting):

> 1P can launch fast Jab with 10F exe > then he land its hit before 2P exit from his -10F SA and be possible to block or begin his move = so 10F Jab is GUARANTEED in 10F advantage.
1P can launch powerful Jumping Kick with 40F exe > both strikes are landed at the same time > wins those who have more dmg i.e. 1P jumping kick > huge Hit stun (stumble, FBHR) in +20F > my Hook 20F is guaranteed punish (reaward).

> Now we are close to Strike intercepting when strike land on another strike execution (startup) phase – and here is the question which is better:
1 variant: (no effect on crushing from dmg or execution phase sector)
1P can launch slower but w more dmg Hook with 20F exe > then he landed its hit on 10th frame of 30frames execution of 2P Strike = so 1P Hook crushes (stops/intercepts) 2P Kick and causes Major counter (much dmg bonus) > more Hit stun (b/c more final dmg = more Hits stun = more SA) for ex +8F on Counter hit for Hook > 1P continue his attacks while he has SA, 2P is forced to go to Defense block instead of striking on negative SA (we solve button mashing in the game).

2 variant: (1P strike's dmg and hitted 2P strike's execution phase sector determines will be 2P strike crushed or not) i.e. ANALOG strike crushing, described at the beginning of 3).


RESUME: I think THE BEST Variant is Variant #1. Because this is more clear, more predictable, more easy to balance and tune, more stable punish to button mashers and “spin kick spammers”.
And still this #1 variant will be realistic enough because strikes final dmg and execution _dynamically changing/depending_ on many real life factors like Stamina 1P and 2P, health, physics vector (how clearly the strike landed), ratings, etc.

4) HIT EFFECTS:
During STUN (Hits stun, Guard stun) you can not to do any Move (movement, Dashes, Sways, Strike, Grappling move, Block), possible only Parry (as a variant)!
As we said before, Hit advantage is depending from Final damage of landed strike.
More damage – more long Hits stun > more striking advantage > more window for more powerful slow strike punish.
The most dangerous (long) Hits stuns are animated as Full body hit reaction (FBHR) (stagger) as we have now.
Health events – may keep them as a Force Majeure, but needs to decrease their % frequency.

ABOUT BASIC (TOTAL) BLOCK and lack of HIT STUNS in EA UFC 1-2:

Basic weak (total) block - was the worse thing. Yes, its effectiveness depends on many factors but it kills mix up mind game at all.

How to fix yours "Strikes are way too fast to block high and low successfully and the tells are way too similar to be able to predict where to block "?
you are right, basic strikes are too fast , can be easily mixed up and hard to read...
... the best way to solve this is to implement in EA UFC 3:
1) Guard stun - after his strike is blocked he is in striking disadvantage, i.e. his next move will start later than yours.

2) Strike crushing - evasive attack which hits him during his strike causes him a Hit stun, i.e. he is freezed and his next move will be after some delay (stun), i.e. you get a striking advantage.

3) Recovery stun - evade his strike by sides step or sway and your move will be sooner than his move (you get striking advantage), while he is ending his strike recovery/return phase (he is vulnerable and helpless).

NOW in EA UFC 2 we do NOT have:

1) Guard stun
2) Strike crushing with follow up striking advantage
3) Recovery stun
And Striking advantage itself... this IS THE PROBLEM of the current striking stand up game, not the separate block!

5) AMPLITUDE - for SHORT REACH VS LONG REACH fighters balance:
In real physics: shorter hand > less time for it to straighten to its full length/strength (less startup then for long reach fighter the same strike type) > short reach fighters will have more faster the same strike types than long reach fighters, but also the shorter distance.
But on low stamina short reach fighter will loose his speed advantage.
Short reach fighter has SA on short distance, Long reach fighter – on long distance.

I am fully agree w yr idea, even more - I've created 2 years ago a thread about how to implement this into the game for more realism and especially for more balance (pros & cons) between short and long reach fighters by Strike AMPLITUDE:
In real life the strike needs enough space for it. More space = more strike' efficiency (power). Short reach fighters (short limbs) needs less space for getting max strike efficiency- this is their pro. Long reach fighters (long limbs) needs more space for getting max strike efficiency - this is their con, but they can reach the opponent on the safe distance while they can not be reached by them - this is their pro.
Now in UFC1-2 long reach fighter has only pro w/o con, short reach had only con w/o pro, so "Jones" are abusable in online mode, this is the issue of current Striking mechanics. And amplitude element can solve it.
Long reach fighter has long hands which needs more space to straight and gain full power
Short reach fighter has shorter hands so he gain full strike power on shorter space
So we will have balance: close distance for short reach fighters, long for long reach fighters.
Amplitude and F=m*a real life principles, which as i said can be easily enough implemented into new striking for UFC 3.

More details here in my thread on EA forum (*it seems it is gone with the down of old EA forums):
http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/10299350.page

GPD, please, could restore this my thread concept post from EA forum or it's gone forever?(
It would be very important element for my New stand up Striking mechanics thread (I will add this there).

How to program this in the game - very simple:
Optimal distance for max strike power = 100% of dmg,
Shorter distance = less % of strike damage proportionally.

One this thing will open for gamers a huge gameplay depth!
Effects from implementing amplitude for strikes:
1) you need to choose right distance for the reach of yr fighter
2) you need to use opponent's disadvantage distance against him (go close against long reach fighters to nerf his strikes)
3) you need to choose yr strikes appropriately to the distance to the opponent (kicks on long distance , elbow on short to get their full power)
4) You will need to change yr strike patterns depending on changed distance
5) You will need to use (combine) yr Striking w yr Footwork more smart and conscious to get max power from yr Striking and to nerf opponent's Striking .
> all these will dramatically increase gameplay depth and skill level on high ranks for the win!

6) COMBO MULTIPLIER:
I think CM is not a bad thing but it must to be tuned. Why CM is good, because in real fight you are trying to perform strike series where first 1-2 strikes are weak (feints, setups) and the last 1-2 are accented strong main strikes. CM simulates this process.
What i know about the Combo logic in EA UFC 2:
- Combos only by switching left to right or vice versa (as buildup)
- proper timing by buffering max 2 strikes (otherwise, 3 strikes 3rd will be instead of 2nd so Left-left for ex and combo resets)
What resets combo:
- any whiff (by sway, dodge, side step, zoning by moving)
- block
- parry
- the same side repeating (left-left)
- L1 advanced strike but still getting final combo multiplier
- possible to reset combo by quick or any other strike (opponent is getting hit)??
What we need to know in striking (this is unclear):
- combo coefficient?
- what the ammount of damage causes FBHR (full body hit reaction)?
- what causes Health events?
Example: Bisping 3 strike combo (Jab headm body hook, L1 spin head kick) 99% causes Knockdown with Health event (head) on _100% healthy full stamina opponent_. It is a script or Health event was caused by appropriate ammount of damage?
- i am sure that my stamina only causes SPEED slow down of my strikes but not the damage now in EA UFC 2 (i tested, i am on 0% stamina and my 3 hit combo deals FBHR and the same dmg on full stamina opponent).
About COUNTER WINDOW (CW) opportunity:
CW - in this window if i hit the opponent he will get increased damage which can cause FBHR
Successful Parry give us 2 sec CW
Successful Dodge, Sway - 3 sec CW
Moving and opponent whiffed - 3 sec CW
Parry, Dodge, Swat and zoning has as i think already the same dmg bonus.

> So, what I think we need to do with CM (the only things to change):
1. make this CM rules more strictly especially in SWITCHING from L-R-L-R strikes (this switching gives more power to strikes because of irl physics MOMENTUM), but now in EA UFC 2 some series still gain CM when repeating strikes with the same side L-L-L i.e. W/O MOMENTUM – this is wrong and need to be fixed. Also this switching will allow for defensive player to predict the side of the nest strike and so the side for his side step evade against half circling strikes.
2. decrease combo coefficient dmg bonus
3. make longest Combo in 4 and not for every combination. I don’t know 5 strike combos (now we have 5 strikes combo length)
4. decrease tracking for strikes against side step evades!


7)
LUCKY STRIKE:
Lucky strike - one strike that cause KO regardless of current opponent's health status.
This exist irl, so it must to be in the game.
But it must to be very rare and requires some conditions for increasing % probability of this Lucky strike:
- counter window
- powerful enough strike (not jab)
- high my stamina
- low opponent stamina (so he is not ready to resist the incoming strike)
- Momentum (strike landed on opponent's execution phase)

8) "Striking advantage" SLIDER in Gameplay settings:


Devs can create in gameplay settings "Striking advantage" SLIDER - which will increase/decrease the coefficient % of Striking advantage in the game between 2 edges (Arcade and Pro sim).
More SA - more and longer hit stuns and cost of mistake
Less SA - less and shorter hit stuns and more arcadish strike mashing.
For ranked game modes - devs need to setup constant SA (nearly 50% for ex) based on community feedback.
So SA become tuned on the fly gameplay property.


9) STRIKE TRACKING: We have 3 groups of Strikes in the game:
1. LINEAR STRIKE – must to not track well timed Side step or Side Sway.
2. HALF CIRCULAR STRIKE – must to not track when Side stepping/Side swaying in opposite direction away from the strike. The defender needs to check from which side the strike is or will be coming, based on foot position (orthodox/southpaw stance and CM anticipated side strike if attacker is skilled in Combos).
3. FULL CIRCULAR STRIKE – must track all Side steps/Side sways regardless of their direction, but circular strike are slower and costs more stamina so more risker.
What we have now: I don’t how real physics works in determining of landing strikes against side movements, but very often this is not stable and predictable = randomness!
RESUME: Devs you need to rework evasive properties of side movements or tracking properties of strikes to make Track mechanics more clear and stable/predictable. This will increase the role of Side evasive movements in the game which is very required!

Some additions to Striking concept:

10) SOUND HIT CONFIRM:
In this Striking concept we has at least 4 types of hits:
1. Blocked hit
2. Major counter hit – landed on opponent’s execution phase, give additional large dmg bonus.
3. Normal hit – landed on normal state, no dmg bonus
4. Side turned hit – landed when opponent is by side to me, increased damage and SA.


Devs just need to make SPECIAL SOUND for every 4 type of hits.
1. muffled shuffling sound
2. the most loud sound
3. less loud sound
4. loud expiring sound (like air exiting).


Effect: sound confirm allow player on the fly to check his strike result and react to this more earlier > more deep and planned gameplay.


11) SIDE TURNED Situation (STS) as a anti turtle tool:
The idea is to bring Side turned situation when opponent is by his side to me after some actions.




Opponent in this state:
- requires to turn around to me which take time (for ex 8F), and ONLY AFTER this his strike will launch > his strike execution will be longer by 8F (i.e. more SA to me)
- can activate Block w/o additional penalty (based only on his strike disadvantage), but will have increased frames penalty (8F) required for turning around to become faced to me.
- opponent can turn around to me by clicking any move or strike and all of them will have +8F to their execution.
- in this state opponent’s Block is only by ONE hand > all damage from different sided strike or combo (L-R) are landed on ONE hand > more sooner Block breaking (more suitable situation for Combos) > need less trikes to break a block (shorter combo)
How Block works now in EA UFC2: it depends only on Hand health; when ONE hand accumulate max possible damage it cancels ENTIRE block. Left strikes hits right hand, right strikes hits left hand > Combo (switching L-R) will deal damage to L and R hands nearly equally > needs more strikes to break a block (longer combo).


How to go into STS:
1. By Offensive Side step
2. By some Half circular and Full circular strikes which have rotating effect on opponent (only on Major counter hit).




12) 2 types of SIDE STEPS:
EA UFC 2 has 2 types of Side steps (LS click and with L1) which are not too different in usage.
This Striking concept will bring 2 absolutely different side steps:


1. DEFENSIVE SIDE STEP (DSS):
Click LS up/down
- will have a bit wider range that we have now
- has evasive properties against linear and half circular attacks if stepped in right direction away from the strike (check opponent’s foot position = skill).
- after well timed DSS opponent’s strike whiffed > I have SA for punish
- failed DSS (mistimed) has shorter range and animation , may be another sound (for checking)
- I think devs needs to remove Stamina level effect on DSS (lower stamina = slower DSS) to make it more stable (we have stamina depending strikes – this is enough)
Anti DSS:
- delayed strike to break his DSS timing (when evasive phase of DSS is gone)
- full circular and appropriate half circular strikes
- all grappling moves (Clinch, TD).
Effect from getting hit on failed DSS:
- increased dmg bonus as a Major counter = more hit stun.
Conditions: negative SA (to evade attacks).

2. OFFENSIVE SIDE STEP (OSS):
Click LS up/down + L1
- will have a bit another animation and sound (for checking), wider range
- has NOT any evasive properties at all! All strikes and Grappling moves are hitting OSS and causing Major counter
- but if the opponent is not making strikes/Grappling moves (Clinch, TD), is moving or stand still or stand Blocking – I will be on his Side after OSS (I will get Side step situation and all advantages from it), so OSS is a perfect anti Turtle tool (against players who back pedal with blocking). And bring more depth and difference into Striking stand up, also will bring truly 3D fighting.
- I think devs needs to remove Stamina level effect on OSS (lower Stamina = slower OSS) to make it more stable (we have stamina depending strikes – this is enough).
Conditions to OSS: neutral or positive SA (to increase SA and solve Turtling fighters. For ex after gaining some SA (by hit, opponent whiff naturally not by DSS, after blocking his strike) i perform OSS to increase my SA and to get opportunity to Block break go to defense opponent.




I want to add some video explanation of defensive (DSS) and offensive (OSS) side step mechanics in concept.

This video is taken from Virtua Fighter 5 final showdown tutorial, how to implement this side step system in EA UFC with realism i wrote above in 11), 12).



Legends:
OM - offensive move (OSS)
DM - defensive move (DSS)
ST - side turned
G - guard block
STG - blocking in side turned situation

Timing:
3:40 – DM
4:00 – OM
32:00 – Failed DM
33:00 – Cancel Failed DM
34:00 – Successful DM
35:40 – Anti DM: Full-circular attacks (is CH)
36:15 – Anti DM: Half-circular attacks (is CH)
38:30 – Getting hit during DM is CH.
39:00 – Anti DM: Delayed attack (is not CH)
40:00 – Anti DM: Throws
41:40 – OM
1:53:00 – Side Guard (SG) and Side-Turned Guard (STG). How to go to the opponent’s side:
1:53:15 – 1. by attack him from behind (6F for him to turning, then STG)
1:53:25 – 2. by successful DM > then immediately (by buffering) attack (even slow attack).
1:54:10 – 3. by OM > then immediately (by buffering) attack (even slow attack).
1:54:40 – I get +3F more advantage from hit to ST opponent.
1:55:25 – I get +3F more advantage from Guard my attack by ST opponent.
1:55:40 – The side frame bonus advantage is determined by the base damage of the attack! Base damage 14 or less = +2 (P and 2P has +2F (not 3F) on ST opponent); Base damage 15 - 24 = +3; Base damage 25 or more = +6.
1:56:25 – STACKING opponent IN STG: Continue striking opponent in STG – he will be stacked in STG (Opponent needs 12F to turning into face Guard): [considering-summering my frame advantage status] IF i hit him at 1-12F (my exe is 1-12F) – he will STG; IF i hit him (me exe is) at 13th or more frame – he will face Guard.
1:57:40 – STG opponent can not to switch High/Low Guard against SOME Strings (Series), but can against Normal strikes.

13) FOOTWORK and SWAY changes:

EA UFC 2 Sway PROS (save it):
1) FWD add GA, BWD add GDA
2) FWD add received dmg bonus
3) BWD add received Body dmg bonus
(GDA - grapple DIS advantage
GA - grapple advantage)
EA UFC 2 Sway CONS (needs to be to fixed):
1) Bug which is breaking counter strike after Sway:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...way-click.html
2) Control input issues which restricts its fast and tight usage:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...2-how-fix.html
3) Strike tracking against Sways needs to be nerfed to buff sway.
4) Needs to buff Left/Right sway effeciency - must to become a tool for evading half circular Head strikes if away the strike.
+
must to get received dmg bonus (like 1.10 lunges) is toward the strike.
5) Needs to allow Sway strike (sway off strike) - strike from sway position, w/o (as we have now) returning to initial state and only then strike begins, which opens us for getting hit from follow up opponent's strike = difficult to counter from sway successfully).
6) Make quicker initial startup animation of Sway (more evasive on start).

What is the most usable sway? Bwd
How often you use others direction sways especially left right? Rare
I have an idea how to bring balance and depth into all Sways:
1) BWD sway - main defensive sway
+ the only Sway that maintain evasive properties against several follow up strikes by just keep holding Sway (other sways evades only one strike or 2 fast jabs, then strikes are tracking holder sway)
+ evade all head strikes
- get increased body damage from all body strikes
- gain GDA
- has slowest sway off strike speed (no boosted strike, for Boosted name check my Boosted strike mechanics thread)
2) FWD sway - offensive defense
+ evade all head strikes except riding up like Uppercut
+ gain GA
+ has faster sway off strike speed (half boosted strike)
- get increased body and head damage from all body strikes and rising up head strikes appropriately.
3) Left/right sway - best offensive sway
+ evade all head strikes except half circular on sway side
+ has the fastest sway off strike speed (boosted strike)
- no effect on GA/GDA
- get increased body and head damage especially (even more no) from half circular strike from sway side.

4) Side steps:
+ evade all head or body strikes except half circular strikes from the sway side
+ boosted strikes after side step
- get increased received dmg bonus from side step side opponent's half circular strike or full circular spinning strike.

5) BWD dash:
+ evade ALL strikes
- gain GDA

6) FWD dash:
- no evades at all
+ boosted strikes
- getting increased head or body dmg during dash
- gain GA

Resume: any sway type and side step and dashes will have their own pros and cons and their own usage strategy > more gameplay depth and yomi to read learn anticipate and then counter opponent.


__________________________________________________ ___________

III. EFFECTS FROM this NEW STRIKING CONCEPT:
1) More realism
2) More Stopping power - every strike has a potential to stop opponent's attack, also causes a Hut stun which gives me an opportunity to advance my attack (because of Striking advantage). This striking concept will solve this problem:
Still NO real STOPPING POWER in EA UFC 2
3) More balance – short reach vs long reach
4) More skill – you need to know your strike’s speed/hit phase length/ and its advantage/disadvantage on hit or block or whiff. You will need Hit checking (hit confirm).
5) More deep and mind game system – you need to plan your attack and your defense on this knowledge.
6) No wtf frustration situations – I know when and why I was countered or punished > so I can predict it > so I can counter it and outwit/outplay my opponent. You was countered not because the system is unoredictable but because you did wrong decision in current situation.
7) More possibilities to improve your game (more gameplay depth) – by creating scripts for every advantage/disadvantage size situations.
8) Possibility to customize Striking stand up gameplay Arcadish<>Sim by Striking advantage slider. And possibility for devs to tune preset of Striking advantage for ranked modes on the fly (by quick minor patch or by servers) based on community feedback!
9) This concept will force players to use ALL Move lists because of simple principle: slower Strike = more dmg Srike = more hits stun = more opportunity for follow up strikes (SA). Every time for the player will be wanting to use the most powerful strike for this conditions (SA), because enough SA will allow him to land even slow strong strike.
_____________________________________________


Please, post here your thoughts about this concept, bring your ideas and adjustments!


Last edited by SUGATA; 01-21-2017 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:07 AM   #2
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Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

dang man that's intense I like it

I'll have to review in detail and think about it lol but some good ideas for sure
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:20 AM   #3
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Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Bro they need to hire you asap.
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:24 AM   #4
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Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

You know what ? Shut up and take my money, period.
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:51 AM   #5
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Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Awsome thread, Christ that's a detailed OP. I think striking should be more realistic but as the game changer already stated the casuals that they're trying to appeal to may not like that. However, if thats the case, there should be a slider or an sim/arcade option as the game changer suggested. Here's are a couple of suggestions I made in another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake the striker
I think the stun capacity and stopping power of a strike should be based on:

Force of the strike – I think the force of a strike should always be based on stamina, instead what happens in this game is stamina only effects striking force when it reaches 0 or very close to it. I don’t think it should be like this at all, your stamina level should always effect the force of your strikes no matter what level your stamina is, for example 100% stamina = 100 strike force, 88% stamina = 88 strike force, 43% stamina = 43 strike force, 10% stamina = 10 strike force e.t.c.

Distance from the opponent – being to close or far from the opponent depending on the strike should lessen its effectiveness, for example a straight thats thrown at such a distance that it barely touches the opponent nose should not do as much damage as a straight thrown at optimum distance

Where the strike lands – if a single strike lands flush on the jaw, chin or temple at full force (full stamina) at optimum distance it should produce a 99% knock out/stagger chance, no matter the situation, if it lands at half that stamina at optimum distance it should produce a 49% knock out/stagger chance, if it lands at quarter stamina at optimum distance it should produce a 24% knock out/stagger chance .e.t.c.

There's a lot more I could suggest and a lot more that I think should be included/changed about the game but I think the above should definitely be included, I think it would promote picking your shots and properly put stopping power in the game.
Also slightly of topic but EA should give us more information about stuff like strike priority and the role of momentum/positioning in this current game. I asked the Game Play Developer here for some answers but he ignored me and answered everyone elses questions for whatever reason (It's cool though).
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:59 AM   #6
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Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake the striker
Awsome thread, Christ that's a detailed OP. I think striking should be more realistic but as the game changer already stated the casuals that they're trying to appeal to may not like that. However, if thats the case, there should be a slider or an sim/arcade option as the game changer suggested. Here's are a couple of suggestions I made in another thread:



Also slightly of topic but EA should give us more information about stuff like strike priority and the role of momentum/positioning in this current game. I asked the Game Play Developer here for some answers but he ignored me and answered everyone elses questions for whatever reason (It's cool though).

Devs can create in gameplay settings "Striking advantage" SLIDER - which will increase/decrease the coefficient % of Striking advantage in the game between 2 edges (Arcade and Pro sim).
More SA - more and longer hit stuns and cost of mistake
Less SA - less and shorter hit stuns and more arcadish strike mashing.
For ranked game modes - devs need to setup constant SA (nearly 50% for ex) based on community feedback.
So SA become tuned on the fly gameplay property.
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Old 06-01-2016, 12:00 PM   #7
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Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Thanks, this is very well written and contains some great ideas. I'm only half way through it but I will read it a few more times when I get into work.

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Old 06-01-2016, 12:12 PM   #8
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can't wait for More replies
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