Tito Ortiz

[OPSPunk]

Quote: Originally Posted by tomitomitomi

You can downplay literally any fighter's competition to discredit them. Also your Hulk Hogan comparison is godawful when he drew more money than anyone in the history of 'rasslin other than maaaaybe Austin. "Nobody else to promote" rofl Anyway, obviously likes of Tito and Wanderlei should be nerfed but preferably so that they are still viable. edit: No Hunt would not make 185 wtf lmao

Your only counter argument was to disagree without giving any examples.
1. You can’t diminish someone’s entire career by downplaying their comp like Tito. You certainly couldn’t do it for DC or Jones. Tito only significant wins ar Vitor and Wandy. Compare that to Chuck who beat Tito,reem, Bustamante Randy, and Randleman.

2. Yes nobody else to promote. Name the other charismatic star on the UFC roster at the time when they were feeding him cans.

3. My hogan comparison is spot on. They were both poster boys for the company because of their ability to draw not technical prowess

4. Hunt is not solid muscle if he cut his fat then cut water he makes 185. He is Romero’s height. Do you think he carries more muscle than Romero?

[tomitomitomi]

Quote: Originally Posted by OPSPunk

Your only counter argument was to disagree without giving any examples. 1. You can’t diminish someone’s entire career by downplaying their comp like Tito. You certainly couldn’t do it for DC or Jones. Tito only significant wins ar Vitor and Wandy. Compare that to Chuck who beat Tito,reem, Bustamante Randy, and Randleman.

I was hoping you'd give me a name and you went for Jon Jones out of all people, one of the easiest top fighters to downplay.

D.C. - How many drug tests did he fail whenever he was scheduled to face Cormier?
OSP - Fringe top 10 fighter in one of the shallowest divisions in MMA. OSP took the fight on short notice and Jones looked awful. So many guys beat OSP so much more convincingly.
Teixeira - Lost to every top 5 fighter he faced. Best win vs Ryan Bader who was lighting him up on feet. Can't deal with wrestling.
Gus - His 2nd best win and he arguably lost
Chael Sonnen - Middleweight wrestler
Vitor - Short notice middleweight and Jones almost lost to him. Vitor had broken hand. Known quitter.
Rashad - Undersized light heavyweight past his prime who went 2-6 after the fight with wins over Chael and Dan Henderson (yeahhh). Was being fed guys like TITO ORTIZ prior.
Lyoto - Another undersized light heavyweight. Got title fight after knocking out a 50-year-old man and losing 2 in a row prior with a robbery win over Shogun. Got fed guys like Tito.
Rampage - Past his prime Rampage who only headhunted people at this point in his career. Best guy he's beaten since Jones fight was maybe King Mo?
Shogun - Came off his 50th knee surgery. Shogun went 3-7 the next 3 years and is clearly past his prime.
Bader - Way before his prime. Bader also lost to every top 5 guy he fought. Went on to lose to TITO ORTIZ of all people. Who did Tito ever win?

Other than DC (roids) and Gustafsson, Jones fought mostly old people with name who were either past their prime or who got away with fighting at heavier weight classes. If Machida and Rashad were up-and-comers they'd be middleweights yet UFC LHW division was so bad they became champs there. How come none of the old timers Jones beat stayed top 5 at 205 after they lost to him?

Since you almost mentioned Chuck.

Tito - You already discredited Tito.
Overeem - Pride Overeem that gassed after the 3 minutes and lost to all the top fighters in Pride. His best were Chuck and Vitor which was 2 months after the Tito fight so "Vitor couldn't handle wrestlers and his sister was just kidnapped".
Bustamante - Lost to every good fighter he faced. How are you gonna discredit Tito then namedrop a guy who only beat guys in the 90s or undersized Japanese guys?
Randy Couture - Best win is Chuck who he lost the trilogy against. Other than that he beat Tito (guy you discredited) and again Vitor. Won heavyweight title when UFC had all-time worst heavyweight division.
Randleman - Lost to every good fighter with the exception of Cro Cop who then beat him in the rematch. A turtle off his back.

Chuck was getting fed one-dimensional grapplers in the UFC because he was a big draw and UFC wanted to milk that cash cow. Chuck was the biggest money draw even though he was essentially a brawler so UFC protected him. Everyone knows the best light heavyweights were in Pride and he got quickly exposed by Rampage. Once Pride guys joined the UFC Chuck's reign of terror (just right off beating Tito, his 2nd best career win may I add) immediately stopped. Clearly exposed.

The issue you run into when discrediting fighters is that a lot of them build their names off of each other.

Griffin - Tito, Shogun, Rampage
Rashad - Griffin, Chuck, Rampage
Rampage - Chuck, Machida, Wanderlei, Hendo
Wanderlei - Rampage, Hendo
Shogun - Rampage, Machida, Chuck
Machida - Tito, Rashad, Couture
Couture - Tito, Vitor, Chuck
Vitor - Wanderlei
Tito - Vitor, Wanderlei, Griffin
Rashad - Chuck, Griffin, Rampage

When you discredit one of them (you discredited three...) suddenly everyone's resume falls apart because they built their legacies from each other. Why should Lyoto's LHW run matter when he beat Tito (again, you discredited him), Thiago Silva and Rashad (who made his name from Chuck and Forrest) to elevate himself to top 5?

Let's do DC.

Volkan Oezdemir - The European Sokodjou. Two quick upset KOs and he gets fed to the wolves
Jones - Never beat the real champ
Rumble - Quits after one round
Anderson - Came in on like days notice. Past his prime middleweight
Gustafsson - Best guy he beat and he arguably lost
Henderson - 50 year old middleweight
Cummins - Barista they found from the street on a week's notice. Fringe top 15 guy in one of the most shallow divisions
Roy Nelson - Guy should fight 185 but has BBQ diet
Frank Mir - Way past his prime. Who hasn't beaten him?
Dion Staring - Can
Josh Barnett - Hasn't beaten a good fighter since 2006 when he was on steroids
Bigfoot Silva - Made his career off beating clearly past his prime Fedor. Got exposed quickly in UFC.

Quote:

2. Yes nobody else to promote. Name the other charismatic star on the UFC roster at the time when they were feeding him cans. 3. My hogan comparison is spot on. They were both poster boys for the company because of their ability to draw not technical prowess

I was referring to your ridiculous comment on how the biggest moneydraw in the history of 'rasslin was only promoted because "they had no one else to promote". It's almost like 'rasslin is entertainment with an emphasis on making a profit rather than an athletic competition. Stop being a mark.

Quote:

4. Hunt is not solid muscle if he cut his fat then cut water he makes 185. He is Romero’s height. Do you think he carries more muscle than Romero?

The height is irrelevant. George Roop was 6'1 and fought at 135. Mark Hunt is a THICC boy. You'd have to amputate his leg to have any chance at 185. But hey, Yoel has a 6pack I guess...

[FlaccoNumba5]

Quote: Originally Posted by tomitomitomi

I was hoping you'd give me a name and you went for Jon Jones out of all people, one of the easiest top fighters to downplay. D.C. - How many drug tests did he fail whenever he was scheduled to face Cormier? OSP - Fringe top 10 fighter in one of the shallowest divisions in MMA. OSP took the fight on short notice and Jones looked awful. So many guys beat OSP so much more convincingly. Teixeira - Lost to every top 5 fighter he faced. Best win vs Ryan Bader who was lighting him up on feet. Can't deal with wrestling. Gus - His 2nd best win and he arguably lost Chael Sonnen - Middleweight wrestler Vitor - Short notice middleweight and Jones almost lost to him. Vitor had broken hand. Known quitter. Rashad - Undersized light heavyweight past his prime who went 2-6 after the fight with wins over Chael and Dan Henderson (yeahhh). Was being fed guys like TITO ORTIZ prior. Lyoto - Another undersized light heavyweight. Got title fight after knocking out a 50-year-old man and losing 2 in a row prior with a robbery win over Shogun. Got fed guys like Tito. Rampage - Past his prime Rampage who only headhunted people at this point in his career. Best guy he's beaten since Jones fight was maybe King Mo? Shogun - Came off his 50th knee surgery. Shogun went 3-7 the next 3 years and is clearly past his prime. Bader - Way before his prime. Bader also lost to every top 5 guy he fought. Went on to lose to TITO ORTIZ of all people. Who did Tito ever win? Other than DC (roids) and Gustafsson, Jones fought mostly old people with name who were either past their prime or who got away with fighting at heavier weight classes. If Machida and Rashad were up-and-comers they'd be middleweights yet UFC LHW division was so bad they became champs there. How come none of the old timers Jones beat stayed top 5 at 205 after they lost to him? Since you almost mentioned Chuck. Tito - You already discredited Tito. Overeem - Pride Overeem that gassed after the 3 minutes and lost to all the top fighters in Pride. His best were Chuck and Vitor which was 2 months after the Tito fight so "Vitor couldn't handle wrestlers and his sister was just kidnapped". Bustamante - Lost to every good fighter he faced. How are you gonna discredit Tito then namedrop a guy who only beat guys in the 90s or undersized Japanese guys? Randy Couture - Best win is Chuck who he lost the trilogy against. Other than that he beat Tito (guy you discredited) and again Vitor. Won heavyweight title when UFC had all-time worst heavyweight division. Randleman - Lost to every good fighter with the exception of Cro Cop who then beat him in the rematch. A turtle off his back. Chuck was getting fed one-dimensional grapplers in the UFC because he was a big draw and UFC wanted to milk that cash cow. Chuck was the biggest money draw even though he was essentially a brawler so UFC protected him. Everyone knows the best light heavyweights were in Pride and he got quickly exposed by Rampage. Once Pride guys joined the UFC Chuck's reign of terror (just right off beating Tito, his 2nd best career win may I add) immediately stopped. Clearly exposed. The issue you run into when discrediting fighters is that a lot of them build their names off of each other. Griffin - Tito, Shogun, Rampage Rashad - Griffin, Chuck, Rampage Rampage - Chuck, Machida, Wanderlei, Hendo Wanderlei - Rampage, Hendo Shogun - Rampage, Machida, Chuck Machida - Tito, Rashad, Couture Couture - Tito, Vitor, Chuck Vitor - Wanderlei Tito - Vitor, Wanderlei, Griffin Rashad - Chuck, Griffin, Rampage When you discredit one of them (you discredited three...) suddenly everyone's resume falls apart because they built their legacies from each other. Why should Lyoto's LHW run matter when he beat Tito (again, you discredited him), Thiago Silva and Rashad (who made his name from Chuck and Forrest) to elevate himself to top 5? Let's do DC. Volkan Oezdemir - The European Sokodjou. Two quick upset KOs and he gets fed to the wolves Jones - Never beat the real champ Rumble - Quits after one round Anderson - Came in on like days notice. Past his prime middleweight Gustafsson - Best guy he beat and he arguably lost Henderson - 50 year old middleweight Cummins - Barista they found from the street on a week's notice. Fringe top 15 guy in one of the most shallow divisions Roy Nelson - Guy should fight 185 but has BBQ diet Frank Mir - Way past his prime. Who hasn't beaten him? Dion Staring - Can Josh Barnett - Hasn't beaten a good fighter since 2006 when he was on steroids Bigfoot Silva - Made his career off beating clearly past his prime Fedor. Got exposed quickly in UFC. I was referring to your ridiculous comment on how the biggest moneydraw in the history of 'rasslin was only promoted because "they had no one else to promote". It's almost like 'rasslin is entertainment with an emphasis on making a profit rather than an athletic competition. Stop being a mark. The height is irrelevant. George Roop was 6'1 and fought at 135. Mark Hunt is a THICC boy. You'd have to amputate his leg to have any chance at 185. But hey, Yoel has a 6pack I guess...

What’s your actual top 5 MMA fighters and your GOAT? You seem to be p well versed so I just wanna see your opinion on all of this. I was gonna make fun of you for writing a damn novel then I got interested lmao

[tomitomitomi]

Quote: Originally Posted by FlaccoNumba5

What’s your actual top 5 MMA fighters and your GOAT? You seem to be p well versed so I just wanna see your opinion on all of this. I was gonna make fun of you for writing a damn novel then I got interested lmao

I get out of control at times Honestly my list would be pretty similar to most guys but anyway.

Mighty Mouse
- MMA is one of the few sports where the current era is commonly considered to be the best it has ever been. For instance, many NBA fans would consider the 90s to be the strongest era (I disagree). I think Mighty Mouse is the best fighter at the moment so by default he would also be the best fighter of all time. People commonly criticize his opposition but I think that is because of their lack of name value rather than skill. In general the lighter weight classes are more skillful than heavier weight classes. Most elite athlete big boys go to NBA/NFL.

Jose Aldo
- Took out the old guard (Brown/Faber etc) and remained a dominant champ in one of the best divisions. Conor and Holloway beat him but they have combined title defenses of 1 to Aldo's 9.

Jon Jones
- Similar to Aldo but more dominant and versatile. However, I've felt that LHW was a shallow division for a long time (and no, not because Jones cleared it out). As a side note, I always felt that Jones got too much credit for supposedly "beating guys at their own game". I would consider him more of a cerebral fighter who wears people down with his gargantuan limbs then finishes them with his grappling.

GSP
- One of the most well-rounded and dominant fighters in one of the best divisions. Avenged all his losses. Ruled over a very strong division.

Anderson
- The flashiest elite fighter and a dominant champion. Personally I always rated GSP ahead of him. He was primarily a striker and MW wasn't that great at the time.

Fedor
- Dominated the best heavyweight division (in my opinion anyway. UFC HW division after Strikeforce had potential but guys weren't active enough/fell off). Probably the most well-rounded guy of his era. The biggest knocks on him are some of his can fights (which I don't really think take away from his as much as they just don't matter. He dismantled the cans) and that he's the furthest from the current era. Like I mentioned, most elite big boy athletes went to other sports but at the same time if Fedor is the GOAT heavyweight then you could argue by default he's the best fighter too since size matters.

Honorable mention: Dominick Cruz
- He was so much ahead of the game and would probably have dominated bantamweight for a long time but injuries killed that.

I think it boils down to what you prioritize. My top 3 would probably be

1. Mighty Mouse because he's just the best overall fighter of all time
2. GSP because he has the best resume. Great combination of fight IQ and skills.
3. Fedor because was by far the best fighter in the world in his prime. Also, he's my OG favorite fighter so I'm biased.

Some would argue Jon Jones is all 3 things but I have always had a bias against him. I have some personal critiques about him but this has gone offtopic enough already. At the end of the day P4P/GOAT are pretty artificial and arbitrary so I wouldn't take them too seriously.

jk Conor goat.

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Also, I would like to reiterate that the point of my NOVEL wasn't to discredit Jones/DC/Chuck but to just point out that you really can really belittle any fighter's resume and downplay their successes. If you don't believe me, check the Sherdog forums today right after the Stipe vs Cormier tonight. It will be filled with posts of people saying how DC/Stipe got exposed and they never beat any good guys.