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Improvements to finishing system

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Old 09-02-2018, 03:52 PM   #1
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Improvements to finishing system

Hi All,

I have some suggestions of things that could be improved to the finishing system without making major overhauls (for most of my points).

Point 1

Something that really bugs me is that Iím finding sometimes during my KO's / TKO's that the referee interaction triggers half the time but at other times the ref animation never plays out which is strange. I feel that the ref animation should be playing out 100% of the time for all finish positions currently in the game (TKO/KO's).

The ref interactions look so good and really benefit the immersion of finishing an opponent and in real MMA you are always going to see a ref cover finished opponent or wave in the doctors regardless of the type of finish. Letís use these ref interactions more because they need more love for how good they look.

Point 2

Another major thing that makes the finishes look really bad are most apparent when finishing an opponent against the cage. The new cage finishes are great, but what currently happens is that the falling character suddenly snaps into a pre-set animation for cage finishes and it looks really bad. Examples below:
via GIPHY



Point 3

Iím finding that the hit detection is pretty bad when it comes to finishes and you really see the extent to this problem in the replays. It seems that many of the shots donít even appear to fully register with the downed opponents face. See the example below:



What should be happening is the opponents head should be fully registering the impact of the punch in terms of the animation, whether that be the head bouncing off the canvas or even some slight backwards movement after a strike is made. It seems that currently the strike is completely missing the head or sometimes being pulled even before impact is made with the opponents head.

This should be looked into because itís relying too heavily upon pre-set animations rather than a physics based hit animations and looks forced/rigid as opposed to a loose animation where the impact is completely followed through. It almost looks WWE-esque the way these punches are being pulled.

Point 4

This for me is less important than the others already covered but the ref interaction often involve ghosting because the ref is not always naturally in view. See the example below where the animation is done correctly:



Now see the example below where the ghosting occurs:


As you can see the ghosting animation plays out. Iím wondering if there is any possibility if we can limit this and have it so that the ref gradually works his way into the view like the first example, rather than popping into view like a ghost as shown in the second.

Point 5

The new cage finish position is good and happens often (arguably too often) but really it lacks variety and does not include the ref interaction animation. The way it functionally feels to me as the attacker is that you are pressing the strike buttons only for three punches to come out at a set speed and at a set time due to a locked animation (often you feel and see a delay in the third/final punch also).

Equally as important I feel that as a defender there is nothing you can really do apart from observe and hope you get out of the position. There should be an actual way to defend yourself in this positon. Maybe this is where the seated grappling positons can be put to good use if we get this in the upcoming patch.

So overall for this position we need more animation variety, ref interaction, better defensive options and as mentioned in point 2 the defending character snapping into position has to be addressed.

Point 6

The delay on being able to follow up on a KOíed opponent is sometimes too pronounced. What I can see happening currently is the attacker waits for the opponent to fully fall down and then moves into a set position and then your strikes start coming out. The delay can be small to very noticeable depending on the KO animation and position of the standing fighter.

This takes away some of the immersion when you are pressing the punch buttons in fury trying to follow up but your fighter is just standing there. Maybe better punch tracking improvements for finishes can help this scenario.

Point 7

As far as Iím aware you currently cannot do this but I could be wrong. Please let me know if I am. But the ability to punch from either hand in certain FTF KO positons and the ability to chain together hammer fists , punches and elbows would be a really cool feature to add in.

For example in the below video, if Anderson Silva could alternate between which hand to punch with and with which strikes during the KO animation then that would make for much more diverse finishes (see example of how is currently works from just one punch and one hand):


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope that my points are taken into some consideration as it did take me a while to format everything due to the YT clipping playing up. I think that most of the points I raised will require work but not anything so far removed from any of the systems already currently in the game. Itís mainly just the polishing on top of the current systems.

I think that if all these points are addressed then I would personally feel more satisfied than having full ragdoll KOís like EA UFC 2 had. This is because we already know that the reasons behind why itís difficult at this point for full ragdoll KOís, so I tried to avoid this exclusively as one of my points (although some physics tuning will be needed for a few points raised).

Thanks & Regards
AB541


Last edited by ab541; 09-02-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:06 PM   #2
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Re: Improvements to finishing system

Sorry for point 4 (video example 1) being so small. This formatting was killing me. I just gave up on trying to format it in the end as it was a choice beetween size or keeping the clipping in place.

Regards
AB541

Last edited by ab541; 09-02-2018 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 09-02-2018, 06:19 PM   #3
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Re: Improvements to finishing system

Yeah I feel the finishes to fights in EA UFC 3 really left a lot to be desired since the beginning. They've improved them quite a bit, but honestly they still need a good amount of work in my opinion.

Heavily physics-based hit reactions and multiple choices for strikes are the two big ones for me. Those two alone would vary the finishes exponentially from where they are now.
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Old 09-02-2018, 09:58 PM   #4
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Re: Improvements to finishing system

This is all good stuff, dude. Sadly, I donít know how much of this will be addressed for UFC 3.

My hats off to the dev team for all their post-release improvements. Overall, a much better game. But yeah, the finishes are easily one of the worst parts of the game. I agree with Reinfarcements, that we need more physics-driven interactions to add variety and dynamism to the finishes. Hopefully for UFC 4.


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Old 09-03-2018, 04:59 PM   #5
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Re: Improvements to finishing system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfarcements
Yeah I feel the finishes to fights in EA UFC 3 really left a lot to be desired since the beginning. They've improved them quite a bit, but honestly they still need a good amount of work in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfarcements
Heavily physics-based hit reactions and multiple choices for strikes are the two big ones for me. Those two alone would vary the finishes exponentially from where they are now.
Yeah they really do need them in this game and I fully agree with you. It’s strange because GPD replied to me and said that RPM tech has nothing to do with ragdoll physics, so for whatever other reason they went for a more set animation based approach toning the physics way down.

Look at the two examples I have given below from UD3. I mean man those are some beautiful free flowing physics based finishes where all the impacts are being followed through excellently as I tried to highlight in my list.





I wish the game currently had this physics based approach because the EA UFC 3 striking system is way less robotic than UD3, but it’s just unfortunate the finishes are as robotic and contrived as you can get. Talk about falling just short of the mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Cool_Ice
This is all good stuff, dude. Sadly, I don’t know how much of this will be addressed for UFC 3.

My hats off to the dev team for all their post-release improvements. Overall, a much better game. But yeah, the finishes are easily one of the worst parts of the game. I agree with Reinfarcements, that we need more physics-driven interactions to add variety and dynamism to the finishes. Hopefully for UFC 4.


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Yep , although I hope at least some attempt is made to improve the tracking and physics as it’s really awful at the moment. The devs have definitely done a great job with patching everything else so far and they are the best developers I have ever seen in terms of interaction and applying changes based directly off that feedback.

However I’m here to be critical when need be and the truth is a game that came out 6 years ago puts it to complete and utter shame when it comes to the overall KO’s/TKO approach which for many is the biggest draw. One thing EA UFC 3 does better than UD3 is that it has a much better ref interaction animations, but apart from that I can’t list anymore in terms of the finishes.

So really I guess now the devs can agree and do nothing or refute the evidence by claiming recycled set animation based KO’s are better. But the truth essentially all of us want this area improved even if it’s by some small margin. After countless yet excellent threads and polls showing overwhelming support in favour of improving this area, it really cannot be ignored for much longer because there is high demand. Like everyone else who dropped money on this game i personally dont want to have to wait another 2 years for the next iteration, just for this area to be worked on.

I'm trying to stay optmistic for now, hence making this thread, but like you said i am also fully prepared for nothing being changed in this area until UFC 4 which sucks but what can we do i suppose.

Thanks & Regards
AB541


Last edited by ab541; 09-03-2018 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 09-03-2018, 05:29 PM   #6
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Re: Improvements to finishing system

Superb post man agreed 100%. I've actually been seeing way more ragdoll involved knockouts, I haven't seen the side canned one anymore. If the fighter goes to the side it ragdolls on its back, it's looking really good now, so definitely progress. Also a lot more physics on strikes after a KO, it seems to happen almost all the time now. It's getting more physics driven now, it's definitely on the right track.
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Old 09-04-2018, 04:10 PM   #7
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Re: Improvements to finishing system

Very good open post!


FTF is VERY primitive in EA UFC 3.
__________________________________________________ _____________

This is the full breakdown of FTF mechanics (copy past from my EA UFC 3 Meta)

FINISH THE FIGHT (FTF) mechanics:

Attacker:
Go into FTF: [when opponent was send into an Alert KD, KD, or KO – as soon as he hit the floor][near opponent] by (click) square or triangle - Diving Head Punch into Finish The Fight position. Other buttons – as usual.
In FTF: (clicking)square or triangle - Head Punches (Uppercut/Hummer fist). Other buttons – not used (no L2/L1/R1 strike modifiers).
Defender:
Will automatically escape from FTF position after 2-3 sec, if survive.
(tapping repeatedly) RS left/right - for faster Quick Recovery

1. IF the opponent falls after an Alert KD - they will regain SUB Guard as you dive onto them.
NO more the old Step-over-into-DOM Mount follow up strikes after KD. If the KD’ed opponent is aware (Alert KD) - he will always regain his SUB Guard.
2. IF the opponent falls after a KD - you’ll enter into a Ground Finish the Fight position, where his survival will depend on how many times he has been Rocked or Knocked down previously in the fight.
3. IF the opponent falls after a KO - you can now dive on them and Finish the Fight emphatically with some additional GnP, OR if you are confident in the outcome, do not press any buttons and be rewarded with a walk off KO.
> IF I do NOT want to go into Grappling Ground – pay attention [when dealing Alert KD or KD] and do NOT click Punch – to avoid Diving Punch to Finish the Fight.
4. [IF any type KD when opponent’s back close to the Cage - regardless of the severity of the knockdown, including Alert or Active Knockdowns] [The distance from the opponent up to the Cage required for this depends on types of Strike caused KD: straight trajectory strikes = further distance, other strikes = shorter distance] opponent is down into seated position, FINISHING THE FIGHT AGAINST THE CAGE position (SEATED AGAINST THE CAGE POSITION):
- Attacker – can Finish the Fight.
- Defender – can escape (Quick Recovery) into Over Under against the Cage clinch position.
> IF opponent is further to the Cage – use Straight trajectory strikes, if closer – any Strikes to get FTF against the Cage position.

__________________________________________________ _____

So, as you can see, in EA UFC 3 no strike modifiers, very limited control, very limited diversity in situations, very arcadish. UFC UD is still the best and far away!

Last edited by SUGATA; 09-04-2018 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 09-06-2018, 04:06 PM   #8
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Re: Improvements to finishing system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealthhh
Superb post man agreed 100%. I've actually been seeing way more ragdoll involved knockouts, I haven't seen the side canned one anymore. If the fighter goes to the side it ragdolls on its back, it's looking really good now, so definitely progress. Also a lot more physics on strikes after a KO, it seems to happen almost all the time now. It's getting more physics driven now, it's definitely on the right track.

Thanks man and yeah I agree that the knockouts have improved no doubt, but still not what I would call great looking knockouts. Although having said that i have not hopped on the game for a few days, so I’m guessing unless they changed something drastically via some hidden patch/tuner it’s still probably similar looking. I will test it out today though.

For the KO animations I would have put it in the list, but I wanted to deliberately avoid adding the “bring back EA UFC 2 type ragdoll” request in order to better highlight a lot of the other issues with the finishes. Although like I said in my list quite a few of the points, especially the most important ones will require physics tuning.

I feel that moving away from physics base impacts in any modern day sports game is bad due to various reasons like replay value, authenticity etc. As a series it’s fair to say that EA UFC 2 did a better job at driving this area than the current game. I hope that the developers take note of my list and other finish related threads for the remaining patches or if a much better physics implementation is destined for EA UFC 4 then it’s better than having the requests completely ignored I suppose.

Just a quick throwback to a gem that you and others might remember :




I remember seeing that trailer before the original UD game came out and my jaw was on the floor ha. Although the game looked nothing like that I still played the crap out of it. But in terms of the cinematic trailer it’s something at the time I imagined would be possible 10+ years later. Every slam, punch, kick, KO is driven by heavy physics. I can only dream of a full MMA game that actually looks like this and it's probably safe to say we are quite far off from this possiblity due to hardware/development limitations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SUGATA
Very good open post!


FTF is VERY primitive in EA UFC 3.
__________________________________________________ _____________

This is the full breakdown of FTF mechanics (copy past from my EA UFC 3 Meta)...................
Thanks SUGATA, i love your write ups. The patch/tuner write ups are very useful and are definitely appreciated by the community. Its saves us wading through old blog posts to gather all the new changes together. It's really nice to have everything compact and readable in one place (:

Also thanks very much for posting the FTF mechanics. When you see it in that list form its much clearer how basic and limited it is like you mentioned. I think the fact that UD3 had much more choice and had clearly better physics driven finishes/impacts ; compared with EA UFC 3 which has a smaller amount of FTF related paths and much more repetitive animations to go along with it, makes it a clear no contest in favour of UD series for this area.

If you or someone has the FTF mechanic writeup for UD3 i would love to compare both lists. Im sure it would further highlight the stark difference beetween the two games for FTF.

Regards
AB541


Last edited by ab541; 09-06-2018 at 04:29 PM.
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