Thoughts on the jab feint- body cross

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by SUGATA

Going personal is the last thing when you dont have an arguments and facts to present. I asked 3 concrete questions - instead of answers i got personal. I am not interested to waste time on stupid personal insults. And this is a SHAME when one moderator starts this personal trolling bs, and not the first time. I understand why so many old members leave this sub forum. May be that was right way... and may be will be.

You play with fire, you'll get burned. Don't talk to somebody one way, and be flabbergasted when they respond with a similar tune. Back on topic.

I also answered your 'concrete' questions, but you seem to have ignored that too.

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by RomeroXVII

Coming from the guy who can barely put his posts together coherently. No, I know it's not the feint itself, you can speed up the question mark kick with Adesanya if you feint the lead body Teep kick because it's in the combo list. If you input the cross slightly later after the feint (referring to the jab feint body cross), it comes out its normal speed, a HUMAN speed. The issue people have with the jab feint body cross, is NOT the feint itself, it is the DISTANCE it allows you to cover + SPEED. Nobody in real life is sliding over across the octagon with jab feint body crosses. Nobody in real life gets a speed boost because they feinted a strike that was apart of their combo list and suddenly they became faster. Sent from my SM-G965U using Operation Sports mobile app

Video proof:

- i performed fastest possible input which via buffering memory launched strikes as fast as possible in the game

- i performed on different ranges and conditions

- different strikes

- but all are the part of Hard Combo HC (if you dont know what HC means learn GPD topics)

RESULTS:
- NO any type of boosts (speed) for any type of strikes any time - from Feints.

- NO any distance boost at all from Feints.

- so, NO problems in Feints (as topic author complained). The only what can be complained here - is the concrete Hard Combo speed, but i am personally sure that Jab-body Cross hard combo is realistic and right, b/c follow up body lower strike is speed boosted from up head Jab in down-fwd vector direction by wight transition ("falling down").




P.S. This is not the first time you start arguing with me and falling down into personal (summoning TheShizNo1 with his mind free "hokku"), but then recognize me right.

[MartialMind]

In the very first comment i posted here, I also reported thesame thing SUGATA is here. I too don't believe the feint is speeding up the body straight in anyway at all, and tests in Practice mode does prove it. But until a Dev comes in here and confirms it, we might never get down to the bottom of it.

To understand what the feint is doing, i think it's important to understand the logic behind the rule that was put in place. This rule is based on "Realism".

If a fighter wants to throw a forward moving jab followed by a forward moving straight to the body... He CANNOT maintain thesame range AND speed. One of those is always compromised.

When you lunge into the jab, to maintain range, you have to lunge again into the body straight and that takes away some speed. The only way to maintain speed is by lunging into the jab, planting and throwing the body straight.

Basically, It is physically impossible to maintain both speed and range when you go high and low on a forward moving combo.

When the game first dropped, we could do this, but then a change was implemented. If you wanna maintain range with this combo, you throw the forward moving jab, pause, then throw the forward moving straight. If you don't pause at all, the straight will fall short.

The jab feint is simply bypassing this rule. The feint is saying, "Well this wasn't a full jab, so i should maintain range when i fully commit to the body straight". But this is wrong.

It's not about the strike, it's about the lunge. Doesn't matter if you're lunging into a full jab, or lunging into a Jab feint.... once that lunge happens, you MUST pause and lunge again to maintain range.

Solution:

Just make it so the jab feint doesn't bypass the rule. Simple.

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by MartialMind

In the very first comment i posted here, I also reported thesame thing SUGATA is here. I too don't believe the feint is speeding up the body straight in anyway at all, and tests in Practice mode does prove it. But until a Dev comes in here and confirms it, we might never get down to the bottom of it. To understand what the feint is doing, i think it's important to understand the logic behind the rule that was put in place. This rule is based on "Realism". If a fighter wants to throw a forward moving jab followed by a forward moving straight to the body... He CANNOT maintain thesame range AND speed. One of those is always compromised. When you lunge into the jab, to maintain range, you have to lunge again into the body straight and that takes away some speed. The only way to maintain speed is by lunging into the jab, planting and throwing the body straight. Basically, It is physically impossible to maintain both speed and range when you go high and low on a forward moving combo. When the game first dropped, we could do this, but then a change was implemented. If you wanna maintain range with this combo, you throw the forward moving jab, pause, then throw the forward moving straight. If you don't pause at all, the straight will fall short. The jab feint is simply bypassing this rule. The feint is saying, "Well this wasn't a full jab, so i should maintain range when i fully commit to the body straight". But this is wrong. It's not about the strike, it's about the lunge. Doesn't matter if you're lunging into a full jab, or lunging into a Jab feint.... once that lunge happens, you MUST pause and lunge again to maintain range. Solution: Just make it so the jab feint doesn't bypass the rule. Simple.

Thank you for a thorough explanation Martial.

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by SUGATA

Video proof: - i performed fastest possible input which via buffering memory launched strikes as fast as possible in the game - i performed on different ranges and conditions - different strikes - but all are the part of Hard Combo HC (if you dont know what HC means learn GPD topics) RESULTS: - NO any type of boosts (speed) for any type of strikes any time - from Feints. - NO any distance boost at all from Feints. - so, NO problems in Feints (as topic author complained). The only what can be complained here - is the concrete Hard Combo speed, but i am personally sure that Jab-body Cross hard combo is realistic and right, b/c follow up body lower strike is speed boosted from up head Jab in down-fwd vector direction by wight transition ("falling down"). P.S. This is not the first time you start arguing with me and falling down into personal (summoning TheShizNo1 with his mind free "hokku"), but then recognize me right.

Not referring to it planted.

Congratulations, you still didn't do what the topic is about. When I get home, I will show you. Martial explained it perfectly.


Also I have no idea about this Hakka or summoning witchcraft you're referring to.

I also know nothing about your 'personal', so again, you make no sense on that.

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by MartialMind

In the very first comment i posted here, I also reported thesame thing SUGATA is here. I too don't believe the feint is speeding up the body straight in anyway at all, and tests in Practice mode does prove it. But until a Dev comes in here and confirms it, we might never get down to the bottom of it. To understand what the feint is doing, i think it's important to understand the logic behind the rule that was put in place. This rule is based on "Realism". If a fighter wants to throw a forward moving jab followed by a forward moving straight to the body... He CANNOT maintain thesame range AND speed. One of those is always compromised. When you lunge into the jab, to maintain range, you have to lunge again into the body straight and that takes away some speed. The only way to maintain speed is by lunging into the jab, planting and throwing the body straight. Basically, It is physically impossible to maintain both speed and range when you go high and low on a forward moving combo. When the game first dropped, we could do this, but then a change was implemented. If you wanna maintain range with this combo, you throw the forward moving jab, pause, then throw the forward moving straight. If you don't pause at all, the straight will fall short. The jab feint is simply bypassing this rule. The feint is saying, "Well this wasn't a full jab, so i should maintain range when i fully commit to the body straight". But this is wrong. It's not about the strike, it's about the lunge. Doesn't matter if you're lunging into a full jab, or lunging into a Jab feint.... once that lunge happens, you MUST pause and lunge again to maintain range. Solution: Just make it so the jab feint doesn't bypass the rule. Simple.

OK, lets talk about PLANTING or feinting during FWD Moving combos:


Dude, i am forced to disagree w you here.

Our input here is:
keep FWD Moving (holding LS toward the opponent, not "Lunge" click LS) +

#1. Jab into (W/O pause) Body cross - has a bit shorter ("planting) fwd step than WITH delay while maintaining fast speed as a Harc combo - yes.
Btw, if you made a pause - this will reset Hard combo counting, so the 2nd strike simply becomes your 1st moving strike so it regain its range (no planting). Feint was mentioned to use w/o pauses (while it get distraction to the opponent), so it is logical that Feint must to give an advantage w/o pauses before follow up strikes - this range increasing on FWD Moving becomes this advantage.
Why do you think that this is unrealistic and some guys are thinking it breaks gameplay (dont forget about feints stamina penalty equal to the full strike = balance)?

or

#2. Jab feint into (W/O pause) Body Cross - has a bit longer (no "planting") fwd step, with the same fast Speed as 1. - WHY do you think this is wrong and unrealistic? this is my question.

I think this IS realistic, so all is RIGHT now, b/c:
- there is a BIG difference between full and especially whiffed strike, which ended in weight unbalance and loosing weight transfer vector VS short light NOT accented Feint, which was pre-loaded for follow up weight transfer to next 2nd accented fwd moving strike.
- so , in #1 yes, you need a PAUSE (to balance weight) for longer 2nd move or w/o pause you get shorter but faster 2nd move - only something ONE, not both.
but
in #2 you do NOT NEED a PAUSE (not needed to balance your weight transfer, feint is not accented strike) to keep BOTH speed and range.

RESUME: now we have realistic and right Feint into strike behavior during FWD MOVING, too.

Example:

look on the 2nd follow up body cross on 2:30 - it has insane speed and range on follow up 2nd body punch

[MartialMind]

SUGATA.... Forgive me if i misunderstand anything you've written. It is not an easy task to understand you.

First i'll respond to this comment here.

Our input here is:
keep FWD Moving (holding LS toward the opponent, not "Lunge" click LS) +

When i use the word "Lunge" i'm referring to the "Animation". When you hold forward on your left stick and throw a jab, yes it is an advancing jab, but how do you perform a forward moving jab? Depending on how far you are away from the opponent, you either do it with a small step, or a bigger step.

I like to separate the two into "Stepping and Lunging" Jabs to make it easier to explain.

Stepping Jab:



Lunging Jab:



Now in the game, we actually don't have control over which type we throw. In a game like UD3, you could throw a regular stepping jab, or for some fighters, you could FLICK the left stick forward, then jab to throw a longer lunging jab like the one GSP threw there.

In the game though, flicking the left stick forward and throwing a Jab doesn't throw a "Lunging Jab"... I call that one the "Reaching Jab" because you're not actually advancing forward. A lunge implies moving from point A to point B. With this jab, You're reaching as far as you can with the jab with your lead leg but returning right back to where you started. THIS is not what i'm referring to when i "Lunge Into a jab"... so let's just get that part clear.

Now to the question you asked here:

#2. Jab feint into (W/O pause) Body Cross - has a bit longer (no "planting") fwd step, with the same fast Speed as 1. - WHY do you think this is wrong and unrealistic? this is my question.

I think it is wrong and unrealistic because it is.

Your argument is

in #2 you do NOT NEED a PAUSE (not needed to balance your weight transfer, feint is not accented strike) to keep BOTH speed and range.

"Feint is not accented strike" is really confusing to me. I'm not sure what you're trying to get across with the word "Accented" in there but if i understand you completely, you're arguing that because a "Feint is not a real strike with full commitment, a fighter won't need to balance their weight before proceeding".

Yes that would be true, if the feint, was a STATIONARY feint, or a feint done with very little step. Like the video you posted.



In the clip above, the fighter BARELY takes a forward step with the jab feint. Ofcourse he won't need to balance his weight again before lunging into the straight. I'd like to see him try that same sequence, but this time, do it like the game tries to sell it.



In the game, like you see above, you take a CLEAR forward step, same amount of step you'd take if you were to lunge into a jab, but then you just keep advancing forward, no pause to regain your balance. That is physically impossible. You can even clearly see the leg sliding forward in the above clip.

The fact that it was a feint, doesn't negate the fact that you took a clear step... You MUST Pause slightly before taking another. There's no way around that.

I'd like to see someone demonstrate that this is possible for me. You won't be able to.

After the initial step into that feint, GSP should pause slightly to balance his weight, before continuing into the body straight. That's the only way that sequence makes sense realistically.

Make sense?

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by MartialMind

SUGATA.... Forgive me if i misunderstand anything you've written. It is not an easy task to understand you. First i'll respond to this comment here. Our input here is: keep FWD Moving (holding LS toward the opponent, not "Lunge" click LS) + When i use the word "Lunge" i'm referring to the "Animation". When you hold forward on your left stick and throw a jab, yes it is an advancing jab, but how do you perform a forward moving jab? Depending on how far you are away from the opponent, you either do it with a small step, or a bigger step. I like to separate the two into "Stepping and Lunging" Jabs to make it easier to explain. Stepping Jab: Lunging Jab: Now in the game, we actually don't have control over which type we throw. In a game like UD3, you could throw a regular stepping jab, or for some fighters, you could FLICK the left stick forward, then jab to throw a longer lunging jab like the one GSP threw there. In the game though, flicking the left stick forward and throwing a Jab doesn't throw a "Lunging Jab"... I call that one the "Reaching Jab" because you're not actually advancing forward. A lunge implies moving from point A to point B. With this jab, You're reaching as far as you can with the jab with your lead leg but returning right back to where you started. THIS is not what i'm referring to when i "Lunge Into a jab"... so let's just get that part clear. Now to the question you asked here: #2. Jab feint into (W/O pause) Body Cross - has a bit longer (no "planting") fwd step, with the same fast Speed as 1. - WHY do you think this is wrong and unrealistic? this is my question. I think it is wrong and unrealistic because it is. Your argument is in #2 you do NOT NEED a PAUSE (not needed to balance your weight transfer, feint is not accented strike) to keep BOTH speed and range. "Feint is not accented strike" is really confusing to me. I'm not sure what you're trying to get across with the word "Accented" in there but if i understand you completely, you're arguing that because a "Feint is not a real strike with full commitment, a fighter won't need to balance their weight before proceeding". Yes that would be true, if the feint, was a STATIONARY feint, or a feint done with very little step. Like the video you posted. In the clip above, the fighter BARELY takes a forward step with the jab feint. Ofcourse he won't need to balance his weight again before lunging into the straight. I'd like to see him try that same sequence, but this time, do it like the game tries to sell it. In the game, like you see above, you take a CLEAR forward step, same amount of step you'd take if you were to lunge into a jab, but then you just keep advancing forward, no pause to regain your balance. That is physically impossible. You can even clearly see the leg sliding forward in the above clip. The fact that it was a feint, doesn't negate the fact that you took a clear step... You MUST Pause slightly before taking another. There's no way around that. I'd like to see someone demonstrate that this is possible for me. You won't be able to. After the initial step into that feint, GSP should pause slightly to balance his weight, before continuing into the body straight. That's the only way that sequence makes sense realistically. Make sense?

@SUGATA