Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

The argument is a little more nuanced. They want to have fun and have a chance at winning. They dont consider winning using "running" (I hate that term because it isnt actually running) fun. They dont mind losing if they lose playing in a fun action packed way. For example, I would love to see true cage grappling. To the point where if someone was skilled enough they could hold someone against the cage and grind them out for 3 rounds. I dont know if comp players would like that. I actually think they would hate that. Not because they couldnt learn how to cage grapple and do the same thing but because they dont consider winning that way fun.

I’ll say this. I think we can all agree UFC 3> UFC 2> UFC 1

The reason being the games have become more realistic in terms of stats and gameplay with each variation.

With MMA on the cusp of becoming mainstream due to the ESPN deal UFC 4 would be making a huge mistake if they took a step back in regard the quest for a balanced, fun MMA game based on realistic principles.

I just hope UFC 4 is another step towards realism and conveying the sport. There are gonna be a lot of new MMA fans in the next year.

[johnmangala]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

I would present their argument for grappling if their argument was one of the main reasons why a change people in this community wanted wasnt happening. That all I did here. What I bolded is an example of why I have gone away from responding to your posts over the last few months. You dont know what the **** I've been saying behind the scenes. You dont know what arguments I've made over the past year regarding sim elements that should be added to the game. I have never "sheltered" comp players. Whats hilarious to me is you have the gall to claim that I'm sheltering them when you pretty much just hide on OS and make your posts to a community that sees things 100% the way you do. Thats easy. You arent really debating anything. I dont see you posting this stuff on Reddit or the ESFL discord or anywhere where the majority might disagree with you. You are preaching to the choir and that easy. I spent MONTHS arguing for things that (as I've stated time and time again) dont really affect offline players (which is what I am). Things that really only affect online players who want a sim game. Its also why I've gone away from making gameplay arguments because its a thankless job. The majority of comp players want a game that is less like a sport and more like a video game. They have more pull for a number of reasons but over the past 2-3 years, Ive taken more time arguing for the inclusion of sim elements in the game than anyone behind the scenes other than MartialMind.

Idk why you take this so personally. This isn't about you despite you trying to make it be. I never even claimed you shelter comp, just that you could use the argument that the tools aren't being used on them too but you haven't.

Now you are trying to turn it on me and make it like I don't want to be challenged, funnier still I am one of the few that is consistently in debates here. "A community that 100% agrees with me"? LOL talk about hyperbole, I guess you forgot all those times people attacked me here for my views. There are probably more regular apologists on this site than critics. I am not in ESFL, why would I post there. I didn't even know devs are active on Reddit or discord. I came here because they were active here and these are the official forums now. In fact, once UFC 4 releases and those sites are active with devs I would start posting there too, especially if my ideas aren't undermined as 'preaching to the choir' since I'd be in a 'minority'. That's all beside the point tho.

The point which you have avoided with all these red herrings is simple. Circling remains a matter of skill, it's cage cutting v circling away. The majority of the player base shouldn't be restricted just because a vocal minority doesn't want to use all the tools.

You haven't acknowledged that there is already hard counters to 'running' in game... grappling (and major lunging along too). Why don't you argue comp should use all these tools like you do for the rest of us? Circling would give another tool that can be used offensively or defensively. You only seem to focus on scenarios where the opponent is circling away. But you don't acknowledge that circling along side would cut off normal movement and major lunges better, whereas it'd be even against circling away so it's actually balanced.

Comp want's balance and skill to matter more, you haven't presented anything that shows they would be against balanced circling. They are against too effective timidity and avoidance, if the tool is balanced this concern is checked. What's would be the issue if circling were introduced but with tunings that made cage cutting more effective v circling away/'running' so evading becomes more manageable like body strikes now.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnmangala

Idk why you take this so personally. This isn't about you despite you trying to make it be. I never even claimed you shelter comp, just that you could use the argument that the tools aren't being used on them too but you haven't. Now you are trying to turn it on me and make it like I don't want to be challenged, funnier still I am one of the few that is consistently in debates here. "A community that 100% agrees with me"? LOL talk about hyperbole, I guess you forgot all those times people attacked me here for my views. There are probably more regular apologists on this site than critics. I am not in ESFL, why would I post there. I didn't even know devs are active on Reddit or discord. I came here because they were active here and these are the official forums now. In fact, once UFC 4 releases and those sites are active with devs I would start posting there too, especially if my ideas aren't undermined as 'preaching to the choir' since I'd be in a 'minority'. That's all beside the point tho. The point which you have avoided with all these red herrings is simple. Circling remains a matter of skill, it's cage cutting v circling away. The majority of the player base shouldn't be restricted just because a vocal minority doesn't want to use all the tools. You haven't acknowledged that there is already hard counters to 'running' in game... grappling (and major lunging along too). Why don't you argue comp should use all these tools like you do for the rest of us? Circling would give another tool that can be used offensively or defensively. You only seem to focus on scenarios where the opponent is circling away. But you don't acknowledge that circling along side would cut off normal movement and major lunges better, whereas it'd be even against circling away so it's actually balanced. Comp want's balance and skill to matter more, you haven't presented anything that shows they would be against balanced circling. They are against too effective timidity and avoidance, if the tool is balanced this concern is checked. What's would be the issue if circling were introduced but with tunings that made cage cutting more effective v circling away/'running' so evading becomes more manageable like body strikes now.

Do you read what you actually type?

"Same thing we see here but instead we have comp being sheltered when you should use the argument on them that they need to use the tools."

Seriously. You said it right there. I take it personally because you keep using the word "you". You struggle with being able to clearly state what you mean at times. If you meant the devs or the community "shelters" them....say that. But you said "you" in reference to me.

There are no red herrings. No one is even debating your point. I never once said I didnt want circling. I never once said that adding a circle out isnt a good thing. Your position is always if you arent 100% behind your point, it means your against the point which is just dumb. I said that I anticipated that comp players would be against it and I clarified it more by giving you numerous examples where they pushed back on things that made sense from a sim perspective but that they considered encouraging running.

Also why would I need to mention that grappling and major lunging are hard counter to "running" in this thread....ITS NOT MY ****ING ARGUMENT! LOL!

I stated clearly that I think the running argument is bull**** but guess what....the devs dont. If they did there wouldnt be things like a stamina tax on a back retreat/sprint. Also the circle out angle in the current game would likely be more severe.

You seem to want to debate this point, right? Why dont you leave the sim confines of OS and post this same post in forums like the EA UFC reddit and the ESFL discord. Get a consensus. Then post on OS about how "the community" agrees with you. But you wont do that. Like I said its easier to defend it here. Even if 1 or 2 people disagree, you arent going to get killed for presenting an idea that is primarily focused on sim elements.

You know whats better than posting threads with ideas supported by gifs. That same thread with hundreds of different people agreeing with you. Or that same thread where you debate against people from other communities and counter their arguments.

Dont use the devs excuse either. GPD posts here like once a quarter. Skynet only really talks about his area of AI. There isnt much interaction here when they are in the middle of development and even outside of development, the devs basically lurk, pop in occasionally and take information.....just like they do on Reddit or Twitter or Youtube or Discord.

[johnmangala]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Do you read what you actually type? "Same thing we see here but instead we have comp being sheltered when you should use the argument on them that they need to use the tools." Seriously. You said it right there. I take it personally because you keep using the word "you". You struggle with being able to clearly state what you mean at times. If you meant the devs or the community "shelters" them....say that. But you said "you" in reference to me. There are no red herrings. No one is even debating your point. I never once said I didnt want circling. I never once said that adding a circle out isnt a good thing. Your position is always if you arent 100% behind your point, it means your against the point which is just dumb. I said that I anticipated that comp players would be against it and I clarified it more by giving you numerous examples where they pushed back on things that made sense from a sim perspective but that they considered encouraging running. Also why would I need to mention that grappling and major lunging are hard counter to "running"....ITS NOT MY ****ING ARGUMENT! LOL! I stated clearly that I think the running argument is bull**** but guess what....the devs dont. If they did there wouldnt be things like a stamina tax on a back retreat/sprint. Also the circle out angle in the current game would likely be more severe. You seem to want to debate this point, right? Why dont you leave the sim confines of OS and post this same post in forums like the EA UFC reddit and the ESFL discord. Get a consensus. Then post on OS about how "the community" agrees with you. But you wont do that. Like I said its easier to defend it here. Even if 1 or 2 people disagree, you arent going to get killed for presenting an idea that is primarily focused on sim elements. You know whats better than posting threads with ideas supported by gifs. That same thread with hundreds of different people agreeing with you. Or that same thread where you debate against people from other communities and counter their arguments. Dont use the devs excuse either. GPD posts here like once a quarter. Skynet only really talks about his area of AI. There isnt much interaction here when they are in the middle of development and even outside of development, the devs basically lurk, pop in occasionally and take information.....just like they do on Reddit or Twitter or Youtube or Discord.

That's an inference on your part. You can be plural. Comp is being sheltered when you don't apply the same rules for them as you do for everyone else- that they can use the hard counter tools like everyone else has to, fun seems to matter so much when it comes to their preference but what about fun for the rest?

I will go to places like too once devs are active for UFC 4, but you said it yourself devs aren't active now. Using your logic does that mean that comp doesn't want to come to places like this because they'd be the 'minority'? Even tho this community has comp players among GCs and Devs like ESFL champs Papadoc, Retracted, ranked comp like Romero and Good Grappler, 1212. I have debated most of those, and also have regular posters that itch to discredit me like you keep trying to do too. So that point is moot really.

Your post about yourself is mostly a red herring (distracting) from the point that circling can be used offensively and defensively, balancing each other. I am addressing the argument itself and you keep bringing it back to yourself. IDK why...

You should mention things like that because it's disingenuous otherwise, comp not using the tools debunks your the point you are presenting that comp doesn't want circling because it encourages 'running' by showing the parallel between the critiques:

People complaining about pressure but not using the tools
Comp complaining about 'running' but not using the tools

There are tools to deal with both scenarios, devs will attest to this and I'm sure you would too. My point is there could be more tools for both sides. Circling achieves just that.

Because according to what you presented for them, "it's not fun". We all want to have fun, but weighing their subjective sense of 'fun' over
objective functionality is shortsighted.

[bmlimo]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

The argument is a little more nuanced. They want to have fun and have a chance at winning. They dont consider winning using "running" (I hate that term because it isnt actually running) fun. They dont mind losing if they lose playing in a fun action packed way. For example, I would love to see true cage grappling. To the point where if someone was skilled enough they could hold someone against the cage and grind them out for 3 rounds. I dont know if comp players would like that. I actually think they would hate that. Not because they couldnt learn how to cage grapple and do the same thing but because they dont consider winning that way fun.

Sorry man but they care a lot about losing, losing is what make they wanna change things always with the excuse “oh average players can do that and win against us”, and devs start changing thing to those players comfort zone.
Grappling since ufc 2 is possible sit on deny until time pass and they never said a word about it, because they were winning using it

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnmangala

That's an inference on your part. You can be plural. Comp is being sheltered when you don't apply the same rules for them as you do for everyone else- that they can use the hard counter tools like everyone else has to, fun seems to matter so much when it comes to their preference but what about fun for the rest? I will go to places like too once devs are active for UFC 4, but you said it yourself devs aren't active now. Using your logic does that mean that comp doesn't want to come to places like this because they'd be the 'minority'? Even tho this community has comp players among GCs and Devs like ESFL champs Papadoc, Retracted, ranked comp like Romero and Good Grappler, 1212. I have debated most of those, and also have regular posters that itch to discredit me like you keep trying to do too. So that point is moot really. Your post about yourself is mostly a red herring (distracting) from the point that circling can be used offensively and defensively, balancing each other. I am addressing the argument itself and you keep bringing it back to yourself. IDK why... You should mention things like that because it's disingenuous otherwise, comp not using the tools debunks your the point you are presenting that comp doesn't want circling because it encourages 'running' by showing the parallel between the critiques: People complaining about pressure but not using the tools Comp complaining about 'running' but not using the tools There are tools to deal with both scenarios, devs will attest to this and I'm sure you would too. My point is there could be more tools for both sides. Circling achieves just that. Because according to what you presented for them, "it's not fun". We all want to have fun, but weighing their subjective sense of 'fun' over objective functionality is shortsighted.

There are no comp players in this thread that dont want circling so what the **** are you talking about? You have never witnessed a discussion I've had with a comp player when it comes to movement so how do you know what I "presented" or not? You dont. You are assuming alot of stuff and consistent with what happens when you assume....you are incorrect.

I've made so many arguments regarding movement that it would take me too long to list them. As Philli and Laurie can attest, I've been talking about this since launch. I've argued that "running" doesnt actually exist. I've argued that there are already tools that allow you to cut off the cage. I've argued that before the movement buffs that there werent enough tools for people to fight outside and at a distance. Ive argued that the circling angle should be significantly increased.

You havent heard those for 2 reasons. i) You arent a game changer so you have no idea what we have discussed. No idea at all. 2) You stay in the OS bubble and debate with like minded people.

Like minded doesnt mean they always agree with you. Out of all of the people you listed only Redacted is someone who isnt a sim obsessed player. 1212 is. So is Romero. They may disagree with how something is implemented. They may disagree with how important/urgent a certain suggestion is (like your hand fighting obsession) but its rare that they will disagree with whether it should be added at all. Thats the difference.

You havent debated with the GCs much because they dont spend much time here. Kenetic rarely posts here. Same with Zack. Zombie posts in spurts. Martial is a sim guy. MMA Game never posts here.

No one is trying to distract anyone. If people complain about constant pressure NOW, I will inform them that there are plenty of movement tools to combat that now. If people complain about adding movement tools because it will increase running, I'll make the same arguments that I have in the past against that.

The difference between me and you is I realize what the response is going to be. People still complain about constant pressure here even though there are more tools to combat that....they dont care. Even if you balance the circling off perfectly, comp players will still complain about running....they dont care.

And thats all I said. I said that people will complain and I reminded people about how much pull comp players have. I even said that I think this is something that should be added either way. Most can see that. You seem to have an issue with understanding that. So hopefully now that I've written this for like the 3rd time, you will finally get it.

[1212headkick]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Explain to me how that works. What is the difference between that and the community providing video feedback about issues in the game?

You get to hear the whole story from many people. Thqs patches were inspired by their many q and as and play days. The obvious disconnect between them and us shows as they dont hear the whole story one on one while actually playing the game. People would voice much more concerns if they know the devs have to listen as they play and they build a greater relationship with us. Its why thq was able to please most people. They got first hand experience what were talking about in game as they played with us. Thq had close to 15 qa and playdays. They tested their patch with the community all the while strengthening the business relationships with them. Its why their wrestling and mma games are legendary

[1212headkick]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnmangala

That's an inference on your part. You can be plural. Comp is being sheltered when you don't apply the same rules for them as you do for everyone else- that they can use the hard counter tools like everyone else has to, fun seems to matter so much when it comes to their preference but what about fun for the rest? I will go to places like too once devs are active for UFC 4, but you said it yourself devs aren't active now. Using your logic does that mean that comp doesn't want to come to places like this because they'd be the 'minority'? Even tho this community has comp players among GCs and Devs like ESFL champs Papadoc, Retracted, ranked comp like Romero and Good Grappler, 1212. I have debated most of those, and also have regular posters that itch to discredit me like you keep trying to do too. So that point is moot really. Your post about yourself is mostly a red herring (distracting) from the point that circling can be used offensively and defensively, balancing each other. I am addressing the argument itself and you keep bringing it back to yourself. IDK why... You should mention things like that because it's disingenuous otherwise, comp not using the tools debunks your the point you are presenting that comp doesn't want circling because it encourages 'running' by showing the parallel between the critiques: People complaining about pressure but not using the tools Comp complaining about 'running' but not using the tools There are tools to deal with both scenarios, devs will attest to this and I'm sure you would too. My point is there could be more tools for both sides. Circling achieves just that. Because according to what you presented for them, "it's not fun". We all want to have fun, but weighing their subjective sense of 'fun' over objective functionality is shortsighted.

He plays bad cop good cop. He pretended to take our side meanwhile having completely different agenda when threads are derailed hes never too far away. This is my opinion. I think if were suppose to have community representatives we should be able to vote on them annually. But the only true way the game will get better is with community events. I do give gpd props he competed in esfl. Lol