Strike output and stamina

[Find_the_Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by RomeroXVII

I agree to an extent. Just on the topic of being technical coming from you surprised me, I've played you before and your style was pretty much focused on just going jab jab jab overhand without much success, so I wouldn't get much enjoyment from playing like that too. Aside from that, I think that it's generally due to lack of fluidity for certain techniques that also effect the pace of the fight. Pivots and the inability to attack off of them. The tracking for a lot of strikes that should and should not land, which runs more risks for the people defending rather than the offensive fighter. (See, my Twitter post of lunging away from a Ronda Body Knee, only for the Knee to track my HEAD, and I'm Holly friggin Holm) Lack of lateral shuffling + better cage cutting mechanics to balance that. Lack of hook range. You should be able to control being able to front block or side block. Look at how Cerrone changed his shot selection when he swarmed Iaquinta a few nights ago. If those things get fixed + added, it would help with making the game a lot better. Of course, with the addition of all of those mechanics, we need an in-depth tutorial similar to MK11 or SC6 to have players understand what works based on certain situations, rather than having us having to guess it out. And yeah limo, when you put it like that, I agree.

I agree most definitely there's quite a bit missing. I'd also like to see more variety in animations as well pertaining to a fighters fatigue level that possibly opens them up to shots that they otherwise wouldn't be open for.

As far as my gameplay, I've worked on it a bit. Ultimately though it depends on who I'm using - I can't exactly guard break with Nogueira and expect to have a great measure of success.

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by Find_the_Door

I agree most definitely there's quite a bit missing. I'd also like to see more variety in animations as well pertaining to a fighters fatigue level that possibly opens them up to shots that they otherwise wouldn't be open for. As far as my gameplay, I've worked on it a bit. Ultimately though it depends on who I'm using - I can't exactly guard break with Nogueira and expect to have a great measure of success.

I've noticed for different characters it takes getting them to a specific amount of stamina to get the gassed animation, which I actually like. It happens much sooner with Sterling than it does with Cruz for example.

[Find_the_Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by RomeroXVII

I've noticed for different characters it takes getting them to a specific amount of stamina to get the gassed animation, which I actually like. It happens much sooner with Sterling than it does with Cruz for example.

Right but right now it's entirely binary - if you reach the threshold of "gassed" the animation remains consistent until you're out of said threshold.

This is very inconsistent too in that the flying knee comes out seemingly the same regardless which is especially frustrating as people use this as a go to to save themselves with regularity.

I don't like rocked strikes just borrowing from fatigued strikes. I was many different gradations of strikes in general - then many different gradations of fatigued strikes as well (rocks too etc). This can and should be applied to ground/clinch work too.

[ZombieRommel]

Quote: Originally Posted by Find_the_Door

Right but right now it's entirely binary - if you reach the threshold of "gassed" the animation remains consistent until you're out of said threshold. This is very inconsistent too in that the flying knee comes out seemingly the same regardless which is especially frustrating as people use this as a go to to save themselves with regularity. I don't like rocked strikes just borrowing from fatigued strikes. I was many different gradations of strikes in general - then many different gradations of fatigued strikes as well (rocks too etc). This can and should be applied to ground/clinch work too.

Martial and I raised the gassed flying knee as a concern for the last tuner update, but from what we heard back, this is something that can only be adjusted with a full client-side patch, sadly.

Quote: Originally Posted by RomeroXVII

I agree to an extent. Just on the topic of being technical coming from you surprised me, I've played you before and your style was pretty much focused on just going jab jab jab overhand without much success, so I wouldn't get much enjoyment from playing like that too. Aside from that, I think that it's generally due to lack of fluidity for certain techniques that also effect the pace of the fight. Pivots and the inability to attack off of them. The tracking for a lot of strikes that should and should not land, which runs more risks for the people defending rather than the offensive fighter. (See, my Twitter post of lunging away from a Ronda Body Knee, only for the Knee to track my HEAD, and I'm Holly friggin Holm) Lack of lateral shuffling + better cage cutting mechanics to balance that. Lack of hook range. You should be able to control being able to front block or side block. Look at how Cerrone changed his shot selection when he swarmed Iaquinta a few nights ago. If those things get fixed + added, it would help with making the game a lot better. Of course, with the addition of all of those mechanics, we need an in-depth tutorial similar to MK11 or SC6 to have players understand what works based on certain situations, rather than having us having to guess it out. And yeah limo, when you put it like that, I agree.

All very good ideas. I've been asking for an "advanced" tutorial for a long time now - I even made a thread about it on the old defunct official forum with video from Virtua Fighter 4 Evo (which had one of the best tutorial modes ever).

Sugata has done the same.

I don't know what's being done now with UFC4, but as I see it, they can either dumb the game down OR increase depth whilst improving the player education tools.

The GPD deep dives were truly awesome (to me it's almost like watching a director's commentary on a movie, I liked the direct explanations), but navigating through the jungle of the internet to find these posts is not something I imagine most casual players did.

We NEED a hook range. I think the lack of more nuanced range distinctions is why to this day FNC still feels so good. It had a physics based system (which had its own problems), but strike ranges felt immaculate. The increased range of an Ali hook or uppercut was perceptible over Frazier's.Tyson players who waded in with hooks got absolutely blown up by well timed straights.

But yeah, what you described here are issues I hope are addressed.

[Find_the_Door]

Ah also the force field dodges are especially frustrating as well. Unrelated to the topic but man oh man I really want that to go (especially when it comes to hooks)

[ZombieRommel]

Quote: Originally Posted by Find_the_Door

Ah also the force field dodges are especially frustrating as well. Unrelated to the topic but man oh man I really want that to go (especially when it comes to hooks)

I brought this up a lot to the devs. It's a personal pet peeve of mine and tends to happen when trying to punish someone who just spammed out their stamina and is in the process of running away.

From what I understand and how it's been explained to me, it's related to the physics / kinetics engine of the game (the IK?) and is very hard to get rid of. GPD would know more. But yeah, I hate it. It offers players who run diagonally backward a lot of safety that flat-out should not exist. I close the distance so that I'm in range to waffle them, and then I'm blown backward 3 feet by a Darth Vader force push.

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

I brought this up a lot to the devs. It's a personal pet peeve of mine and tends to happen when trying to punish someone who just spammed out their stamina and is in the process of running away. From what I understand and how it's been explained to me, it's related to the physics / kinetics engine of the game (the IK?) and is very hard to get rid of. GPD would know more. But yeah, I hate it. It offers players who run diagonally backward a lot of safety that flat-out should not exist. I close the distance so that I'm in range to waffle them, and then I'm blown backward 3 feet by a Darth Vader force push.

Decided to do a test run on ranked on my alt using only Dan Hooker, trying to find the perfect person who uses the whole jab for 100+ strikes a round +with combinations intelligently so I can use that as an example for an argument for those against the stamina issue.

After going 8-1 with Hooker I finally found the perfect fight to illustrate the issue with it, and I will upload it to my channel with commentary.

[HereticFighter]

Quote: Originally Posted by RomeroXVII

The jab is the safest strike in the game in that it doesn't do much damage and the stamina tax on it isn't that crazy. They're just jabs, and the counters for multiple jabs: Slip Straight/Hook/Upper If they start from a distance with the jab, leg kick for extra damage + increased likelihood for a Leg Health event. Uppercut will beat the jab at close range and you'll win the trade. I've shown the difference on the stamina drain on the jab if you slip, or have them whiff, it adds up. I main Aldo in FW and that's what 90% of Holloway players do, and it rarely works because I generally use the tools I have at my disposal correctly. However, it would be inherently easier if hook range was to be implemented so the hooks would be a lot more consistent in beating the jab in game, so that should be said a LOT in these next few months headed into UFC 4, along with adding a front and side block, and parries for straight strikes w/ a cooldown after a mistimed parry, and only allowing to counter back with the same strike you parry.

Here's the problem with that: even a little lag, and head-movement can become useless. I had a fight yesterday with a jab spammer, head-movement failed me 4 times in a row with just a tiny bit of lag, 5th time it works only to go right into a hook.

Not only that, jab might be safe-ish, but when you can spam 150 jabs against the block and have 90 % stamina while your opponent has 0 head health thats a problem. Jabs drain an extremely large amount of head health given their relatively low damage. Even lunges will fail miserably with just a tiny bit of lag.

Here's another example which i think illustrates why the pressure meta and stamina are exactly related: Go into practice mode. For my labbing i used TJ. I threw 45 rear overhands at air (singles letting stamina regen fully each time) , and had only 50% long term stamina. If you throw the same number and hit your opponent, you will have about 80% stamina left. That means that a whiffed strike costs 2.5 times the long term stamina than a landed strike. So of course people stick to you and throw with impunity while distance fighters are punished massively for every miss. **** you can throw 5 rear roundhouses without losing a single shred of stamina if they all land.