This guy denied every clinch attempt and every takedown attempt

[Haz____]

The idea of Wonderboy throwing 110+ strikes per -3 minute accelerated- round is just pure insanity to me. The pace of action in this game is beyond unrealistic.

[WarMMA]

I hope EA makes the grappling deeper in the next game. I really wanna see a chain wrestling system.

[Haz____]

Quote: Originally Posted by Haz____

The idea of Wonderboy throwing 110+ strikes per -3 minute accelerated- round is just pure insanity to me. The pace of action in this game is beyond unrealistic.

Just for fun I went and checked out Wonderboys actual fight stats on...

http://ufcstats.com/fighter-details/4a28cb716c19157a

Here's what we are looking at...

Wonderboys career average strikes landed per minute is 3.5. Yup. Just 3.5.



Now lets go through each individual fight.



Against-

-Pettis
KO 4:55 of round 2. Total fight time 9:55 minutes.
47 strikes landed of 107 thrown.

-Till
5 rounds. Total fight time 25 minutes.
31 strikes landed of 127 thrown.

-Masvidal
3 rounds. Total fight time 15 minutes.
70 strikes landed of 156 thrown.

-Woodley 2
5 rounds. Total fight time 25 minutes.
66 strikes landes of 159 thrown.

-Woodley 1
5 rounds. Total fight time 25 minutes.
60 strikes landed of 181 thrown.

-Hendricks
KO at 3:31 of round 1.
25 strikes landed of 47 thrown.

-Cote
KO at 4:29 of round 1.
29 strikes landed of 47 thrown.





So im not a math guy but just by looking at those numbers it's plain as day UFC 3 striking output is just completely absurd compared to reality.

The Hendricks fight is a good example, ended in around 3 minutes, which is an accelerated round in UFC 3, and Hendricks offeres up basically ZERO resistance and was a human punching bag. Thompson STILL only threw 47 strikes in those 3 minutes.

The striking output in this game is objectively crazy.

[Haz____]

Alberto, if you could take 5 minutes to explain to me what's wrong about that data I would appreciate it. I'm not even trying to be a jerk, or combative.

All I did is copy and paste his stats from the data, with the caveat that Im not a math guy, and that I'm just posting a quick observation of the stats.

[Papadoc60]

Quote: Originally Posted by Haz____

Just for fun I went and checked out Wonderboys actual fight stats on... http://ufcstats.com/fighter-details/4a28cb716c19157a Here's what we are looking at... Wonderboys career average strikes landed per minute is 3.5. Yup. Just 3.5. Now lets go through each individual fight. Against- -Pettis KO 4:55 of round 2. Total fight time 9:55 minutes. 47 strikes landed of 107 thrown. -Till 5 rounds. Total fight time 25 minutes. 31 strikes landed of 127 thrown. -Masvidal 3 rounds. Total fight time 15 minutes. 70 strikes landed of 156 thrown. -Woodley 2 5 rounds. Total fight time 25 minutes. 66 strikes landes of 159 thrown. -Woodley 1 5 rounds. Total fight time 25 minutes. 60 strikes landed of 181 thrown. -Hendricks KO at 3:31 of round 1. 25 strikes landed of 47 thrown. -Cote KO at 4:29 of round 1. 29 strikes landed of 47 thrown. So im not a math guy but just by looking at those numbers it's plain as day UFC 3 striking output is just completely absurd compared to reality. The Hendricks fight is a good example, ended in around 3 minutes, which is an accelerated round in UFC 3, and Hendricks offeres up basically ZERO resistance and was a human punching bag. Thompson STILL only threw 47 strikes in those 3 minutes. The striking output in this game is objectively crazy.

Most people fight the same in this game and use a style that's heavy pressure with block breaking. Tons of jabs just to touch the block and make people react. If you look at the striking meta it's pretty clear that a lot of volume is the best way to make your opponent open up and make mistakes.

The striking output is not going be realistic with these things considered. If you wait until you have full stamina before each combo, you will generally be able to throw without worrying about gassing.

I think the jab feint - body straight combo is another big reason the strike totals are so high. It makes it so easy to chase your opponent and get right back into a chest to chest striking range while also countering straight punches and draining a lot of stamina.

I don't think the way the game does it right now is "bad". It's not realistic, but I wouldn't cross my fingers if that's what you are looking for in a UFC game. UFC 3 clearly emulates MMA but lends itself to being a bit arcadey due to how hard it is to manage customer expectations for a sports game. I would expect this to be par for the course in the future.

Just look at UFC 3's update cycle. At the beginning we had double legs that could shoot from an insane distance and it was abusable. EA's response to everyone whining was to make grappling obsolete for the next 3-4 updates.

Remember when one rock depleted over a third of someone's stamina? That **** got stopped real quick.

EA has to manage customer expectations constantly and they're doing so for a large amount of people that are not represented at all on forums, reddit, or anything.

[MartialMind]

MMA fighters overall are much much better at stopping Takedowns now in the middle of the cage. This is why some of the best grapplers in MMA now are cage wrestlers.

That said.... As you mentioned, it SHOULD be IMPOSSIBLE to completely avoid all grappling in an MMA game, regardless of how good you are... if you're facing another competent player. It shouldn't be a thing. Especially with the clinch.

A fighter might be absolutely insanely difficult to get down or hold on to, like Jose Aldo, but even Aldo doesn't just get to not grapple at all.

The key is a clinch system that is very very very easy to get into and also very very easy to escape. Clinching is an integral part of combat, all combat, it's not something you can just avoid. Even boxers end up in the clinch while throwing just hands.

Overall, this is going to be improved. I'm confident on that. I just wanted to echo your point and agree with you. No, being able to avoid all grappling should not be a thing no matter how elite a player is. Shouldn't be possible.

Edit:

I mostly strike, but when i do wanna get a fight to the ground in this game, what I do is just cycle through all the possible ways we have available to get a Takedown and eventually, i tend to get it. We just have to remember them.

Very recently, I faced a Paulo Costa with Demian Maia. (I'm gonna post this fight soon). I HAD to get him down.

First thing i tried was the cage Takedown. Once he denied the first attempt, I stopped that to not gas myself. Then i tried getting him in the clinch... he denied that. Then I tried a hit reaction Takedown by slipping his strike, countering and then shooting.... he used the absolutely overpowered Takedown counter to stop that. I didn't even bother with the low single cos he would've denied that too.

Next and last hope was the undeniable Takedown. He threw a lunging leg kick, I shot a double and put him on his back. From there, my goal was to hold him down for dear life and gas him out enough to where I could deal with his barrage of combos when we inevitably get back to striking and I succeeded with the good old side control knees.

My point is... yes i agree with you 100% but you gotta try and use ALL the different methods available to you, as opposed to going back to one over and over and over again and end up gassing yourself early.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by Haz____

Alberto, if you could take 5 minutes to explain to me what's wrong about that data I would appreciate it. I'm not even trying to be a jerk, or combative. All I did is copy and paste his stats from the data, with the caveat that Im not a math guy, and that I'm just posting a quick observation of the stats.

The point you are making is correct....UFC 3's striking output is unrealistic. I completely agree with that and have presented that argument to the devs in the past.

The example you are using to support your argument doesnt work though. You are comparing an online player using Wonderboy and Wonderboy's real life stats and concluding that because the online player was able to throw more strikes than Wonderboy typically averages that means strike output is bad.

The problem with that analysis is that Wonderboy only averages 17 landed strikes a round because of his style...not because he cant land more. Wonderboy has a very specific style that is methodical, movement heavy, blitz heavy and counter punch based. If he chose to throw 80, 90...100 strikes a round, he could and not completely gas out. He just chooses not to similar to Machida.

All Pry is doing is taking Wonderboy and using a style and pace that the real life Wonderboy doesnt use.

If this was AI Wonderboy (who on Pro level is supposed to replicate the real life fighters style) and he was throwing 100 strikes a round...that would be a problem. Now if your argument is "Players should be forced to use the real life style that a fighter uses to be successful", my question is how do you do that?

Wonderboy has never shown a real issue with gassing so giving him a low stamina rating wouldnt be realistic. How should the game force Pry to have to use Wonderboy in a way consistent with his real life style?

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

The point you are making is correct....UFC 3's striking output is unrealistic. I completely agree with that and have presented that argument to the devs in the past. The example you are using to support your argument doesnt work though. You are comparing an online player using Wonderboy and Wonderboy's real life stats and concluding that because the online player was able to throw more strikes than Wonderboy typically averages that means strike output is bad. The problem with that analysis is that Wonderboy only averages 17 landed strikes a round because of his style...not because he cant land more. Wonderboy has a very specific style that is methodical, movement heavy, blitz heavy and counter punch based. If he chose to throw 80, 90...100 strikes a round, he could and not completely gas out. He just chooses not to similar to Machida. All Pry is doing is taking Wonderboy and using a style and pace that the real life Wonderboy doesnt use. If this was AI Wonderboy (who on Pro level is supposed to replicate the real life fighters style) and he was throwing 100 strikes a round...that would be a problem. Now if your argument is "Players should be forced to use the real life style that a fighter uses to be successful", my question is how do you do that? Wonderboy has never shown a real issue with gassing so giving him a low stamina rating wouldnt be realistic. How should the game force Pry to have to use Wonderboy in a way consistent with his real life style?

And that's the thing, you're never going to be able to control how the opposing player is going to play. Unless you're fighting a willing dance partner who is going to play sim for sim with you, when it comes to WINNING, which most people care about, they'll look to go to the most meta way of playing, or try to use a specific set of strikes to give themselves an advantage based on principles set on the game.

Just to mention, when fighters train, they're obviously going to throw more strikes than usual since it's training, and they will have no issue throwing an excess amount of strikes. If I sat back and counted how many strikes my friend Zarrukh Adashev (2x Kickboxing Champ, 16-3 Glory Kickboxing) threw in practice, it would exceed 150+ within 10 mins, and he would be as fresh as a daisy. If I had my friend Ronnie record Garbrandt spar or just hit pads with his trainers over at TAM, he'll definitely exceed 100-200 strikes with no problem. What keeps the output lower in real fights is the fact that 'most' fighters are cognizant that they can get knocked out too/they prefer to fight on the outside /threat of grappling/etc etc


EDIT: This fight right here:

https://youtu.be/3WBceeIvEVw

It doesn't matter who xxLu-Bu xx/E-GonzalezAA uses, he will play the exact same way with that jab based style with anybody and have a good amount of success because:

Jabs take the least amount of stamina from the stamina pool (as they should, simple strike)

BUT

There are no balanced parries to thwart against the jabs/straight strikes.

Even at an improper range, he can get my block to overcommit with the jab jab straight, which shouldn't be possible.

There is no hook range that would discourage this player from being up in my face throwing these jabs, for the hook should ALWAYS beat a stuffed jab and have priority over any combination started with a stuffed jab.

A clinch that's easy to get into, and potentially easy to get out of to discourage being so close.

Because of this specific playstyle that I have played against countless of times and won against, I had to find specific combinations that capitalize on the inherent weaknesses/moments of vulnerabilities that I listed in the description.

I have absolutely no fun fighting this dude, no matter how many times I win, because it feels like I'm fighting the style that the game enables, not because of the fighter he has.


And that's coming from somebody who has given the developers TONS of praise on how they've handled the game and listened to the playerbase with fixing many broken things at launch and exploits onwards.