Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

[Good Grappler]

As a wrestler, I shouldn’t have to play the BJJ game of advancing from position to position with traditional BJJ passes. I would think the “home base” for a wrestler on the mat would be a front head lock with their legs back. Instead of transitioning from position to position like a BJJ fighter, I could sorta circle around my opponent, looking for a ride or sprawl, never committing to any one position.

As a wrestler, I want to feel like I’m sorta floating around in top position - always on them, but never on their terms. On one hand, it leaves enough distance for my opponent to scramble or attempt to standup, but it also keeps me far from the BJJ play.

And I want to have control over when to push into them and when not to.

So say I’m floating around in top position, circling away from their guard, and end up in back side. From here I’d “hold” - really engage the position. This is a good control position with little threat of a submission from my opponent. But if they attempt to roll to guard, I could release the hold, and disengage. So when they complete the roll, no one’s in their guard. But then if they try to stand up, I could engage them again and bring them back down to the mat.

So it’s like I’m always on them, but never really giving them any opportunities to work their BJJ. And when they get fed up and try to stand up, I could wrestle then down again.

[Kingslayer04]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

As a wrestler, I shouldn’t have to play the BJJ game of advancing from position to position with traditional BJJ passes. I would think the “home base” for a wrestler on the mat would be a front head lock with their legs back. Instead of transitioning from position to position like a BJJ fighter, I could sorta circle around my opponent, looking for a ride or sprawl, never committing to any one position. As a wrestler, I want to feel like I’m sorta floating around in top position - always on them, but never on their terms. On one hand, it leaves enough distance for my opponent to scramble or attempt to standup, but it also keeps me far from the BJJ play. And I want to have control over when to push into them and when not to. So say I’m floating around in top position, circling away from their guard, and end up in back side. From here I’d “hold” - really engage the position. This is a good control position with little threat of a submission from my opponent. But if they attempt to roll to guard, I could release the hold, and disengage. So when they complete the roll, no one’s in their guard. But then if they try to stand up, I could engage them again and bring them back down to the mat. So it’s like I’m always on them, but never really giving them any opportunities to work their BJJ. And when they get fed up and try to stand up, I could wrestle then down again.

You can't just give the other guy what sounds like some divine advantage just because it's a wrestler you're using.

I see what you're saying and it would be great if the two styles differed more and it were a possibility to tread more carefully on top, but the BJJ player has to have some tricks up his sleeve as well. And as usual, this should 100% percent be determined by two things: player skill and fighter stats. Both extremely important. Not all wrestlers are GSP or Khabib. And against a Demian Maia, you better be using a similar level wrestler if you're going to be hanging with him on the ground at all, carefully or not.

It just sounds like you are completely disregarding the BJJ fighter which prompted me to ask what about them? And what tricks could they have in such a scenario in real life? Perhaps ZHunter can chime in. But there has to be a counter-measure in principle that would work if the values of skill + fighter stats are close enough to each other.

[WarMMA]

I've said this a lot in past threads. Aside from more wrestling based positions and transitions, what this games ground game is really missing is position holding...that's one of the main things wrestlers/grapplers do. Even when their posture isn't being controlled by the guy on bottom, they stay low and heavy in certain positions and hold the opponent down to maintain better control. This game doesn't allow you to do that. The game needs a system that gives you the ability of more free posture control, where you can stay low to maintain better control and hold certain top positions, without fully committing to the position. Undisputed 3 had this and because of this, you could actually effectively use a wrestling style in that game. That's what the game is lacking and why you feel like your constantly playing the bjj game. You can't really "hold" your opponent down...your constantly just trying to stop them from escaping in different directions. I made a post on position holding before and how I think it could work in this game. I'm sure most of you have maybe seen it already, but i'll post it here anyway just in case anyone didn't. If we had this kind of thing in the game, we'd be able to use a wrestling style much more effectively imo...



Position Holding System on Ground

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How It Works
Firstly, the controls would be simple...block and hold the right stick left/right to hold position. Position holding will work hand in hand with the current system, so it will just be another option. You'll be able to hold position or deny at your own choice. Also if you're holding position, you'd be able to let go at any time to attempt a denial. Of course you'd have to be denying in time before the opponents transition goes through. The way I see this being implemented into the current EA UFC grappling system is by allowing it in certain positions only. Like more simple positions where we see guys trying to hold position irl. The upside to holding position is it will allow you to block any transition attempts. The downside is that blocking transitions with it won't grant GA like denials do and that it will also drain your short term stamina. Once your short term stamina drops below a certain threshold, transitions will automatically get through. This will make position holding more of a thing that has to be used strategically.



Positions It Could Be Used In
The positions I think holding can be used in are the more basic ones and the ones we see fighters try to hold and maintain irl.


Top Positions
Holding position from top would be able to be done postured down or after you break an opponents posture control.

DOM Full Guard: As you can see in the gif below, guy on top keeping his head/body down on the opponent to maintain pressure, stay heavy and hold position...

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DOM Half Guard: In gif A, we see a close up look at head & arm control, which is used a lot in half guard and side control to keep pressure on and hold opponents down to maintain position. Then in gif B, see how the top fighter passes to half guard and right away grabs that same head & arm control, to hold down the opponent and maintain his new position.

A

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B

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DOM Side Control
Just like in the half guard, head & arm control is used a lot in side control to keep pressure on opponents and maintain position. Below we see it being used by the guy on top to maintain control of his opponent...

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These are the three top positions I feel could use position holding. All other more difficult to hold top positions like mount, back mount, crucifix, ect would use strictly directional denials.


Bottom Positions
Now position holding would be more situational from bottom, as you'd only be able to do it when the top fighter's posture is down.

SUB Full Guard
Bottom fighter would use body locks or head&arm control from bottom to try and keep the top guy controlled...

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SUB Half Guard
Similar to the full guard, bottom fighter would use body locks or head&arm control to try and keep the top guy controlled...

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SUB Side Control
Now holding from side control bottom will work a bit differently. You'd only be able to block certain transitions in this position, as you can't really "hold" from here. It would let you put a knee up as the bottom fighter, blocking all transitions in the direction of your body. So that means it'll block mount transition, kimura, ect...

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SUB Full Mount
This should really only block posture up attempts by the DOM. We already have holding from mount bottom, but it doesn't really block the posture up attempts...its like one attempt and they get out.

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These are the bottom positions that I feel could use position holding. All other bottom positions would use strictly directional denials.





So those are my idea's on how position holding could work. Just some thoughts, as lots of players including myself, miss that aspect of the grappling from UD3 where it had that immersive feel of struggle and trying to control an opponent.

[Good Grappler]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

This is interesting because even Colby and Usman wanted no parts of Maia on the ground Will Askren vs Maia be another standup war because of Maia’s BJJ?

This is what makes the fight so interesting. Askren isn’t like other wrestlers, who use their wrestling defensively from time to time. He uses his wrestling 100% offensively, every time, regardless of the opponent. I have no doubt in my mind that he will walk straight at Maia and try to take him down immediately. We will never see Askren sprawl and brawl or take a step backwards.

This is why I say Askren is one of the most entertaining fighters in MMA. He walks straight forward as soon as the bell rings, never takes a step back, not afraid of getting hit, not afraid to put himself in dangerous situations. He will go straight to the mat with one of the best BJJ fighters ever on Oct 26, that much I can assure you. What happens next, is one of the most fascinating questions of 2019

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

This is what makes the fight so interesting. Askren isn’t like other wrestlers, who use their wrestling defensively from time to time. He uses his wrestling 100% offensively, every time, regardless of the opponent. I have no doubt in my mind that he will walk straight at Maia and try to take him down immediately. We will never see Askren sprawl and brawl or take a step backwards. This is why I say Askren is one of the most entertaining fighters in MMA. He walks straight forward as soon as the bell rings, never takes a step back, not afraid of getting hit, not afraid to put himself in dangerous situations. He will go straight to the mat with one of the best BJJ fighters ever on Oct 26, that much I can assure you. What happens next, is one of the most fascinating questions of 2019

I dunno man

Same could be said of Colby and Usman outside of the Maia fight.

I hope you’re right tho because this fight will really show the levels that exist within grappling

[Boiler569]

Random thought --- one aspect of EA MMA's ground system that I like more than EA UFCs was the option to go for Minor Transitions vs. Major Transitions.

When in an opponent's full guard, you can try to methodically move to half guard, then advance from there --- or, go for broke, and try to move to side control or even Full Mount in one fell swoop.

Higher Risk, Higher Reward. Just adding this small feature into the ground game for UFC 4 would break-up (some) of the monotony of the Ground or even Clinch game.

[WarMMA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

This is what makes the fight so interesting. Askren isn’t like other wrestlers, who use their wrestling defensively from time to time. He uses his wrestling 100% offensively, every time, regardless of the opponent. I have no doubt in my mind that he will walk straight at Maia and try to take him down immediately. We will never see Askren sprawl and brawl or take a step backwards. This is why I say Askren is one of the most entertaining fighters in MMA. He walks straight forward as soon as the bell rings, never takes a step back, not afraid of getting hit, not afraid to put himself in dangerous situations. He will go straight to the mat with one of the best BJJ fighters ever on Oct 26, that much I can assure you. What happens next, is one of the most fascinating questions of 2019

Yh i'm thinking the same. I think Askren will take him down and maintain safe top positions like the guard, stack guard, back side or side control. He'll float around on top and get out of there when he needs to. Maia is most dangerous when he's on top and when he gets your back. Now if Maia takes Askren down, then it gets even more interesting...especially if he can get Askrens back. Cuz 9 times outta 10 if Maia gets your back, it's probably gonna be a wrap.

[Good Grappler]

Quote: Originally Posted by WarMMA

Yh i'm thinking the same. I think Askren will take him down and maintain safe top positions like the guard, stack guard, back side or side control. He'll float around on top and get out of there when he needs to. Maia is most dangerous when he's on top and when he gets your back. Now if Maia takes Askren down, then it gets even more interesting...especially if he can get Askrens back. Cuz 9 times outta 10 if Maia gets your back, it's probably gonna be a wrap.

I’m 100% expecting Askren’s gameplan to be everything you just said. Take down, control, avoid submissions, etc.

But I’m not 100% sure it’s gonna go down like that. We have to remember who Demian Maia is. There’s a reason people don’t go to the ground with that guy.

I still get flashbacks to Fitch vs Maia. Fitch was grinding everyone out, the master of controlling top position whilst defending subs. I remember thinking Fitch could win that. I thought Fitch’s wrestling would allow him to dictate when and how it went to the mat. And I thought if it did go to the ground, Fitch would be able to stay on top, avoiding sweeps and subs.

Maia ended up completely schooling Fitch, taking HIM down, dominating the mat grappling, taking his back at will. Since then I’ve always considered Maia to be untouchable on the mat. I mean look what he did to Gunnar Nelson. Man’s an animal.

Stylistically, it’s a dangerous match for Ben.