Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

[Good Grappler]

So right now, I think the game suffers from a complete and utter lack of differentiation between BJJ and wrestling, once on the mat. Once you hit the mat, it doesn’t really matter what your grappling background is - we’re all playing the exact same game by the exact same rules. And this game is very BJJ oriented.

For that reason, mat grappling ALWAYS favors the superior BJJ fighter. There is no incentive to ever engage on the mat with an opponent using Demian Maia or Nate Diaz, because as soon as it hits the mat, you’re playing “EA UFC ground game” - a game where all that matters are BJJ stats.

When in reality wrestlers can engage BJJ guys on the mat, and do quite often. They just don’t do it by fully committing to a positional BJJ battle. They engage from the top position, but are always ready to disengage. Wrestlers are superior scramblers, remember. If a wrestler is going for a pass to half guard and their BJJ opponent begins to try something - you best believe the wrestler is bailing outta there or sprawling! No way he’s just gonna clumsily get rolled to his back. If a wrestler is in back side, then the BJJ guy begins to roll to full guard, you think the wrestler will just stay on his knees and wait to posture back down into their closed guard? Hell no! They’re either bailing, or controlling a leg, or anything to avoid committing to that guard.

I know it’s no easy task to emulate this in an MMA game. But it should be possible to grapple like a WRESTLER on the mat. Sprawling should be much more dynamic. BAILING should be a thing. I shouldn’t ever be committing fully to guard if I don’t want to.

A “position by position” ground game, where every movement is either a transition to, or from one of those positions, is boring. The grappling shouldn’t be so positional - it should be more active and hands-on. Get rid of the denials and GA garbage, which only causes stagnant grappling and discourages activity. The only time a fighter should be stagnant in EA UFC 4 is because they’re choosing to, because they’re either gassed or stalling.

I’m done with MMA games where I’m using a wrestler, but once it hits the mat it’s “everything the development team learned from those EA sponsored BJJ classes a couple years ago” mode.

If Ben Askren is in the next game, and I’m forced to play the full guard, half guard, knee slice pass, BJJ 101 for 3 stripe white belts, “EA UFC ground game” stuff again, I’ll die of tuberculosis.

[jayb_270]

I agree. MMA is more wrestling influenced than any other combat sport with the emphasis on top control, stand up, TD defense ect. Ground game is so vanilla


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[ZHunter1990]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

So right now, I think the game suffers from a complete and utter lack of differentiation between BJJ and wrestling, once on the mat. Once you hit the mat, it doesn’t really matter what your grappling background is - we’re all playing the exact same game by the exact same rules. And this game is very BJJ oriented.

Id love to see grappling background determine grappling transitions/positions available and be a bigger part of creating a more dynamic grappling meta. FWIW Ive passed off quite a few suggestions regarding many wrestling positions off to the devs the past few years.

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

I know it’s no easy task to emulate this in an MMA game.But it should be possible to grapple like a WRESTLER on the mat. Sprawling should be much more dynamic. BAILING should be a thing. I shouldn’t ever be committing fully to guard if I don’t want to. A “position by position” ground game, where every movement is either a transition to, or from one of those positions, is boring. The grappling shouldn’t be so positional - it should be more active and hands-on. Get rid of the denials and GA garbage, which only causes stagnant grappling and discourages activity. The only time a fighter should be stagnant in EA UFC 4 is because they’re choosing to, because they’re either gassed or stalling.

You said it yourself, it is no easy task. We have had position by position grappling in every game to date. It is hard to imagine a way to emulate the amount of dynamics that exist in grappling. Tiny nuances that seem insigifcant yet are so important. The variations in a position alone that lend an advantage to either fighter..etc

My guess is that a sort of free form physics based grappling system that allows each fighter full control of each limb would be the alternative, and while that sounds juicy I also imagine it would be stupid expensive to develop. Especially considering that 95% of consumers wont give a **** anyways. How would you justify an expense like that?

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

I’m done with MMA games where I’m using a wrestler, but once it hits the mat it’s “everything the development team learned from those EA sponsored BJJ classes a couple years ago” mode.

To be fair, their classes are run by Pro fighters/MMA coaches with quite a bit of experience out of one of/if not the most reputable MMA Gyms in the area there. It wasnt just a few EA Sponsored BJJ classes. But I get your point.

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

If Ben Askren is in the next game, and I’m forced to play the full guard, half guard, knee slice pass, BJJ 101 for 3 stripe white belts, “EA UFC ground game” stuff again, I’ll die of tuberculosis.

BJJ 101 for 3 stripe white belt is far more experienced than your average EA UFC player or potential buyer. While I feel your pain, you have to ask yourself what you think EA's target audience is and go from there. Will a potential buyer see Askren put someone in a cradle in a trailer and instantly say "I have to buy this game!"? To you and I, and most of the others on this forum, that would be hype. But it would likely be insignificant to most people.

Disclaimer: Im not saying that we won't see changes to the grappling, or more wrestling-esque positions..etc..

[Good Grappler]

To be fair, when I say “3 stripe white belt 101”, I don’t literally mean that the level of BJJ displayed in the game is too amateurish for me. I’m just trying to emphasize the saminess of the grappling system.

And also I’m sure it wasn’t literally some EA employees in plastic gis who showed up and bull****ted a few hours of BJJ. I’m well aware it was world class instructors. I’m just trying to emphasize my points with a bit of obviously ridiculous humor. But it sounds like you got my points anyways.

And lastly, I’m not saying it needs to be “Askren doing full blown cradles”. Don’t get me wrong, I would literally show up at EA headquarters throwing $100 dollar bills on their front sidewalk, but that’s not what I mean. Just a little differentation. Maybe a good start would be to allow inter-scramble bailing (a wrestler can just disengage when a BJJ guy begins mustering something up), and a more dynamic sprawl system (wrestler can just resort to sprawling from all sorts of positions and to counter all sorts of sweeps and scrambles).

[Kingslayer04]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

To be fair, when I say “3 stripe white belt 101”, I don’t literally mean that the level of BJJ displayed in the game is too amateurish for me. I’m just trying to emphasize the saminess of the grappling system. And also I’m sure it wasn’t literally some EA employees in plastic gis who showed up and bull****ted a few hours of BJJ. I’m well aware it was world class instructors. I’m just trying to emphasize my points with a bit of obviously ridiculous humor. But it sounds like you got my points anyways. And lastly, I’m not saying it needs to be “Askren doing full blown cradles”. Don’t get me wrong, I would literally show up at EA headquarters throwing $100 dollar bills on their front sidewalk, but that’s not what I mean. Just a little differentation. Maybe a good start would be to allow inter-scramble bailing (a wrestler can just disengage when a BJJ guy begins mustering something up), and a more dynamic sprawl system (wrestler can just resort to sprawling from all sorts of positions and to counter all sorts of sweeps and scrambles).

I'm no grappling specialist but should a wrestler be able to just disengage in every conceivable situation? That being said, I am left with the impression that wrestlers usually get the better of BJJ practitioners: GSP vs Diaz, RDA and Henderson vs the other Diaz, Usman, and Colby too, I guess, vs Maia...

My question still stands though, should a wrestler be able to disengage to safety every time they get cold feet based on real life? I absolutely get it for it to be a viable option and sometimes easier, sometimes more difficult to pull off, but surely the BJJ fighter can successfully muster something in order to keep the fight in their guard. Even if this may often not be easy. It just read as the BJJ fighter is pretty much ****ed every time they hang with a wrestler in your scenario.

[Phillyboi207]

This is interesting because even Colby and Usman wanted no parts of Maia on the ground

Will Askren vs Maia be another standup war because of Maia’s BJJ?

I do agree with the overall point but I dunno if it’s possible to bail against world class grapplers at will.

Should we able to try? Hell yeah. I miss the “get up” button from UFC1 and would love it to return as some form of scrambling mechanic.

If they do add anything I hope Askren is able to lay the blue print against Maia

[rabbitfistssaipailo]

If the devs can figure out a way for hand fighting , wrist control , as well as holding ankles for control ...we are halfway there .

These things are already in the game's ,yes the animations are already there . It's just that they are just animations and based on other mechanics.

You can even block strikes when you are on- top or in some one's guard . Because full mount isn't dangerous if you can't block transitions. These things are absolutely important.





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[Kingslayer04]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

This is interesting because even Colby and Usman wanted no parts of Maia on the ground Will Askren vs Maia be another standup world because of Maia’s BJJ? I do agree with the overall point but I dunno if it’s possible to bail against world class grapplers at will. Should we able to try? Hell yeah. I miss the “get up” button from UFC1 and would love it to return as some form of scrambling mechanic. If they do add anything I hope Askren is able to lay the blue print against Maia

Yeah, that Usman example may not be the best on my part as I actually missed that fight but I thought Usman would neutralise him and afterwards I read some comments which indicated that's how the fight went. I probably have to see it for myself. I definitely have to if I'm going to use it as an example. Didn't Colby kinda do that once he was done getting lit up by Maia though? I did see that one