Transition based submissions

[johnmangala]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCowboys22

The only thing that worries me about using the current animations for a TBS is that we would need clear “tells” in order to give the defender an opportunity to deny the next stage. I’m not sure that happens with the current animations.

The tells would be the transitions themselves. As you perform a transition you transition to the next/previous stage of the submission depending on whether you are trying to advance or escape the sub. So basically a minor transition moves you one stage at a time while major moves two.

For example the attacker is trying to advance a stage, the defender would see the sub animation move slightly with each attempted transition. The defender blocks/denies the transition by matching the direction of the minor transition few times/duration which stalls the animation. The attacker would win the exchange and advance by shining the RS and holding a direction uncontested for a few seconds. A major transition is a swoop. You advance by swooping longer than the defender and vice versa. Managing stamina becomes crucial as major transitions use a lot of stamina and if you gas yourself trying to advance or escape- transitions slow down.

All the while you can use TBS for position by cancelling the sub and strike to advance or escape the sub.

[johnmangala]

I doubt we will get TBS for UFC 4. The least I can hope for is a rumble during the mini game for HUDless gameplay. I want to see TBS for UFC 5 tho.

[johnmangala]

TBS can happen with the current animations in another way. It can be like now and move in steps and each step/gate is a transition, you may have multiple transitions available at each step depending on different varieties of positions like RNC with hooks or body triangle etc. So you block/deny the transition to block progress or do your own transitions to escape or submit.

So a 5 gate submission would have 5 transitions, 2 for two gate etc. Plus since transitions cost stamina we would have stamina tied submission which I don’t think even UD3 had.

[johnmangala]

Another plus point for changing the gates into positions would be the timed nature of subs currently. You can't really be stuck in a sub for a long time like you can irl. If the gates became positions this problem is alleviated.

[johnmangala]

Quote: Originally Posted by SHADOW_UFCMMA

Nooooo please no more fill in transitions. Dont get me wrong your idea is good, but i think i will throw up if i see ufc 4 has fill in transitions. Fill in transitions feel like a mini game in themeselvs like the sumbissions right now.

I thought of a way to have a better transition mechanic.

What I mean is the stamina actively changing based on our input like the rhythmic button mashing in EA MMA.

So you gain stamina by not moving the stick and moving the stick you drain stamina.. for the mini game.

For a TBS system like I laid out it would enable us to play position over submission and strategize our moves more.

My point was we already have gates. Let each gate be a position. You can strike from that position, rest, or transition (advance/escape). It would also allow for a better sub chaining system too since each gate could have multiple transitions available so we have a more active ground game.

What I worry about is the obstructive HUD that pops up distracting from the gameplay. So instead I suggested making the mini game HUDless by making it the transition mechanic so it can be off center like the transition wheel. Filling a meter isnt as satisfying as landing combos so the gate mechanism could remain as the new transition mechanic.

Each gate stage would have a variety of transition options like body triangle or hooks for RNC or chaining into different subs or positions. So it would feel in line with the rest of the game rather than feeling like subs are disjointed from the rest of the game.

Another issue is the stop and go feel of denials. I suggested lowering the recovery frames so we can chain transitions fluidly, it would feel more like blocking strikes. Faster transitions would also achieve the same effect and we can have scramble like gameplay with the simultaneous transitions.

[johnmangala]

I was thinking of a way for the final stage submission to be TBS. Rather than having a mini game at the final stage it should be a position you hold for period of time.

Different subs can have different periods of time you have to hold for. For example a RNC could be 20 secs while a leg lock can be 10.

[DCowboys22]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnmangala

I was thinking of a way for the final stage submission to be TBS. Rather than having a mini game at the final stage it should be a position you hold for period of time. Different subs can have different periods of time you have to hold for. For example a RNC could be 20 secs while a leg lock can be 10.

As game coding gets more and more sophisticated and intelligent. I would really love for the “final squeeze stage” to be fluid depending on a variety of under-the-hood factors. This could lengthen or shorten the final stage and even allow for flash submissions.

For example:
If I’m using Jacare and I throw up an armbar on someone with poor sub defense, the final stage should be short in comparison to the same sub against someone with high sub defense stats.

Also, stamina of both fighters and damage should play a role in how quick the final stage moves. Finally, submission-specific stats are needed. Someone like Brian Ortega has a ruthless guillotine, it should be feared in comparison to his armbar. And therefor his guillotine should be a faster final stage.

I personally still prefer the idea of a rhythmic button mash to simulate squeezing for the finish instead of just holding the position. But to each their own.

[DCowboys22]

The idea of transition based subs, for me at least, is so interesting. I really can’t see how any mini game or the current system can even compare to it.

Imagine being in top side control and having a difficult time getting to mount position. The defender is doing a good job denying your transitions.

Well, with TBS, imagine transitioning to a far-side kimura with the goal of using it to transition to mount.

Now, the bottom defender is distracted by the wrist control you’ve gained in Stage 1 of the transition. Instead of being in a mini game, as the attacker, you can choose a variety of things from here:

1. Cancel the wrist control and let go while staying in side control
2. Transitioning again to Stage 2 of the kimura
3. Transition to Mount from Stage 1 wrist control
4. Transition to North South from Stage 1 wrist control

It’s an added layer of strategy. It opens up more options for the attacker and more things for the defender to think about.

It’s the most realistic system. You’ll see this everyday in jiu jitsu and mma. Guys using sub attempts as another route to transition to where they want to go