Denials are not responsive and you can't chain combos to takedowns

[Good Grappler]

Quote: Originally Posted by xtremeba1000

I’m 80 in the world on quick fight with 2800 wins in 3200 fights but if I face someone with a monitor they can deny every single fake and transition I attempt. It makes me not want to play ranked because I know I’ll lose to serious players with monitors. It sucks because I use my Xbox to watch Netflix and movies in my living room so I don’t wanna move my Xbox just for this game.

This is the whole flaw with a grappling system that relies on “denials”. Especially when those denials are extremely OP - rewarding stamina and “grapple advantage” (which needs to go ASAP) - and can contribute directly to the end of the fight.

Like in this example, it’s just disgusting to even think about. I’ve been there so many times. Absolutely gross that it’s even possible for such a situation to take place on this game. “My opponent can deny all my transitions so I can’t do anything once it’s on the ground”. Like, what on earth... that should not be a sentence anyone ever says.

Not only are denials ludicrously easy... they reward automatic reversals, and stamina differentials which effectively end the match. So in your example, where your opponent is just denying everything... you have to sit idly doing nothing, because transitioning will lose the match.

And the worst part is that this is what the entire meta evolves around. We all know denials are super easy, and we all know they’re extremely punishing. So the entire grappling meta is evolved around trying to bypass your opponent’s denials by flicking the analog stick to make it LOOK like you’re transitioning, hoping they deny it... allowing a safe transition afterwards.

Is that even vaguely resemblant of real life? Do fighters pretend to transition one way, only to go another direction? Does faking a transition really make their opponent commit all their attention towards blindly focusing on ONE thing - utterly surrendering their ability to defend ANY other attack? It’s like they applied the same logic of striking feints to transitions.

Not to mention the actual “feel” of this playstyle, physically speaking. It’s so frantic, jumpy... reflex based. That’s not how grappling should FEEL. Look at Makhachev vs Dober. I didn’t see jumpiness. I didn’t see Makhaechev frantically react to each transition with a “denial”. I saw Makhachev squeezing, holding, and shutting down transitions via good positioning.

We shouldn’t need to frantically react to each and every transition/fake our opponent attempts. It’s way too reflex-based... it feels like we’re playing a shooter. Grappling should be more of a constantly engaged game; holding, shifting, turning. Frantic explosions (and corresponding controller inputs which represent such a dynamic) should be reserved for reversals, attempts to escape, etc.

I can’t even imagine being a developer for this game, seeing/feeling how the grappling “feels” in the early stages of development, and thinking “yeah this is great”. I especially can’t imagine seeing how the meta shaped up in live gameplay and STILL thinking “yup this is immersive. We got it right”.

And the worst part is this grappling system has been in place for THREE CONSECUTIVE ITERATIONS NOW. They’ve been using this system since EA UFC 2! So there’s either been an active effort to IGNORE the problems with the grappling, or a startlingly high level of obliviousness. Either way I’ve lost all faith in EA’s ability to get the grappling right.

And what really needs to be said, reiterated time and time again... as each new game seemingly REGRESSES in the grappling department... is that UFC Undisputed 3 had it right. They had more positions, more control within those positions, and more abilities to navigate between said positions. Ground and pound had more options, offensively and defensively. The cage was more involved in wrestling and BJJ. Strikes and TDs flowed seamlessly.

And most importantly - it was immersive, and the meta wasn’t corny or repetitive (assuming a patch was released to address punchflick and other minor reversal based exploits). You actually felt like you were squeezing or “holding” a position. There was no such thing as “my opponent denies everything so I can’t do anything”. You could work off your back all day, elbowing them bloody, with like fifty different transitions from full guard alone. You didn’t have or need the “auto reversals” EA uses, because you had so much control over your fighter, you could do whatever you want. You felt like you had full control over the every movement of your fighter’s body - without lengthy animations, automatic functions, and forced scenarios.

[Granbyroll]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

This is the whole flaw with a grappling system that relies on “denials”. Especially when those denials are extremely OP - rewarding stamina and “grapple advantage” (which needs to go ASAP) - and can contribute directly to the end of the fight. Like in this example, it’s just disgusting to even think about. I’ve been there so many times. Absolutely gross that it’s even possible for such a situation to take place on this game. “My opponent can deny all my transitions so I can’t do anything once it’s on the ground”. Like, what on earth... that should not be a sentence anyone ever says. Not only are denials ludicrously easy... they reward automatic reversals, and stamina differentials which effectively end the match. So in your example, where your opponent is just denying everything... you have to sit idly doing nothing, because transitioning will lose the match. And the worst part is that this is what the entire meta evolves around. We all know denials are super easy, and we all know they’re extremely punishing. So the entire grappling meta is evolved around trying to bypass your opponent’s denials by flicking the analog stick to make it LOOK like you’re transitioning, hoping they deny it... allowing a safe transition afterwards. Is that even vaguely resemblant of real life? Do fighters pretend to transition one way, only to go another direction? Does faking a transition really make their opponent commit all their attention towards blindly focusing on ONE thing - utterly surrendering their ability to defend ANY other attack? It’s like they applied the same logic of striking feints to transitions. Not to mention the actual “feel” of this playstyle, physically speaking. It’s so frantic, jumpy... reflex based. That’s not how grappling should FEEL. Look at Makhachev vs Dober. I didn’t see jumpiness. I didn’t see Makhaechev frantically react to each transition with a “denial”. I saw Makhachev squeezing, holding, and shutting down transitions via good positioning. We shouldn’t need to frantically react to each and every transition/fake our opponent attempts. It’s way too reflex-based... it feels like we’re playing a shooter. Grappling should be more of a constantly engaged game; holding, shifting, turning. Frantic explosions (and corresponding controller inputs which represent such a dynamic) should be reserved for reversals, attempts to escape, etc. I can’t even imagine being a developer for this game, seeing/feeling how the grappling “feels” in the early stages of development, and thinking “yeah this is great”. I especially can’t imagine seeing how the meta shaped up in live gameplay and STILL thinking “yup this is immersive. We got it right”. And the worst part is this grappling system has been in place for THREE CONSECUTIVE ITERATIONS NOW. They’ve been using this system since EA UFC 2! So there’s either been an active effort to IGNORE the problems with the grappling, or a startlingly high level of obliviousness. Either way I’ve lost all faith in EA’s ability to get the grappling right. And what really needs to be said, reiterated time and time again... as each new game seemingly REGRESSES in the grappling department... is that UFC Undisputed 3 had it right. They had more positions, more control within those positions, and more abilities to navigate between said positions. Ground and pound had more options, offensively and defensively. The cage was more involved in wrestling and BJJ. Strikes and TDs flowed seamlessly. And most importantly - it was immersive, and the meta wasn’t corny or repetitive (assuming a patch was released to address punchflick and other minor reversal based exploits). You actually felt like you were squeezing or “holding” a position. There was no such thing as “my opponent denies everything so I can’t do anything”. You could work off your back all day, elbowing them bloody, with like fifty different transitions from full guard alone. You didn’t have or need the “auto reversals” EA uses, because you had so much control over your fighter, you could do whatever you want. You felt like you had full control over the every movement of your fighter’s body - without lengthy animations, automatic functions, and forced scenarios.

Undisputed 3 had a complex ground game but very very simple to control. Up on the stick for major transitions. Down on the stick for minor transitions. There was inherent benefits to both. I think its not so much the mechanics fully in the game as it is a lack of minor transitions.

When EA bought yukes what happened to all the mocap from the undisputed games. Does it still exist? Can any of it be used? Is it compatible with the current engine? I just think its not a bad idea or an expensive one to use what you can.

As far as subs go - stamina doesn't matter at all on the ground. You can get a rear naked choke with full stamina. When I played ufc 3 stamina and subs felt like they made more sense.

As a grappler myself I dont feel immersed by the ground game. You don't just shove all your weight one way in real life and get half guard. There are lots of small things you have to do to work yourself to another position. This is represented by minor transitions. The D-pad and left stick aren't used at all on the ground. Maybe in UFC 5 this can be a possibility.


I'm not a yukes fan boy. I enjoyed ea mma as well. Both games had a better ground game then the current version. I understand covid probably through a monkey wrench in things. But this game wasn't ready for release in my opinion and still isn't.

For a guy named granbyroll imagine my frustration at only enjoying the striking. I grew up on ea games. Madden was suppose to be a true simulation of what football was. It taught you real football concepts. I hope someday that EA UFC can accomplish the same thing. EA has the talent with people like skynet. But the ground and the clinch must be looked at with some serious humility if its ever to improve.


The clinch from eas previous iterations were easier IMHO for casuals to grasp. Every time I have couch battles all my non martial arts friends despise the clinch game. They ask if I have UFC 3 or undisputed 3. I like the idea of takedowns being stopped with high or low block. But where it fails as far is skill is it doesn't convey the choices properly.


Is it a level change? Is it a jab? Is it a takedown. The takedown feints need serious work. They don't sell a takedown and even if a player bites you can't fluidly feint takedowns into strikes like you can feint strikes into other strikes. I should be able to fluidly feint a takedown into an overhand and a jab into a double leg. My solution would be move taunts to another input and have the dpad be for takedowns.or maybe have r2 and the dpad be for taunts and l2 and the dpad be for takedowns. Or click the left stick for takedowns. There has to be another input that would work. I despise throwing body punches and shooting only to be koed for something I wasn't even going for.

[TheUFCVeteran]

Quote: Originally Posted by Granbyroll

Undisputed 3 had a complex ground game but very very simple to control. Up on the stick for major transitions. Down on the stick for minor transitions. There was inherent benefits to both. I think its not so much the mechanics fully in the game as it is a lack of minor transitions

Just wanted to say that up and down for major/minor transitions was only for amateur controls. Pro controls used the traditional Undisputed system, quarter circle for a minor transition and a semi circle for a major transition. It also allowed you to fake transitions, whereas on amateur, you couldn’t.

[Abstrakt fists]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheUFCVeteran

Just wanted to say that up and down for major/minor transitions was only for amateur controls. Pro controls used the traditional Undisputed system, quarter circle for a minor transition and a semi circle for a major transition. It also allowed you to fake transitions, whereas on amateur, you couldn’t.

It was the fakes and the undeniable transitions that made it so much more immersive. Even against the best ground players you knew you could set up a transition by out thinking them.

The current game there is no strategic chess match. You just hope you don’t get denied. If you do your only option is to wait a second and try again. No setting it up, you can fake but the twenty second animation just lets them deny the fake and the transition, then you have no stamina. You need at least a Rock, Paper, Scissors type scenario. Right now it’s just rock, paper.