When I have back side control my opponent can take my back..

[GameplayDevUFC]

Quote: Originally Posted by fballturkey

I thought back side control get up was instant but if it isn't it needs to be.

It is, but only when your opponent isn't actively doing something to you. If he is actively doing something to you, you can't just get up as a way of escaping it.

In most cases this makes sense based on the animation. For example, in tower feet on hips you can just walk away and disengage.

But if your opponent starts a DLR sweep on you, you can't. You have to deny to escape that attempt first, then disengage.

That same rule applies to all undeniable transitions.

Now, since some transitions can run concurrently with others (for various reasons, usually because it doesn't physically make sense) who gets to act first when immediately entering into a position will determine the winner.

In this case, you've taken someone's back, you press up to getup and they press left to reverse to top back side.

Whoever has the stamina and grapple advantage in that moment gets a one frame head start.

If both transitions can run at the same time, that one frame head start means nothing.

If they ca't, that one frame head start determines whose move will register.

So it's not that the getup always loses to the reversal, it's that it loses if you're at a disadvantage.

I can understand how this might be frustrating if your goal is to getup, and you just won back control and want to take advantage of that.

But immediately transitioning will only work if you have the stamina advantage after a successful transition.

If not, you need to first secure the position and then getup.

That may mean just waiting half a second to make sure your opponent isn't trying to do something, or denying his first attempt guaranteeing your undeniable transition will win out.

[Boiler569]

One annoying thing about this position

SUB Back Side Control can continue to spam the 'reversal' over and over and over, and you can't strike though it. Even if you have 100% stam and he has 0% stam; if he keeps trying for that, you cant get GnP on him.

Of course, you can just transition continue to deny to waste his stamina...or immediately transition to back mount --- but still, I prefer back side control for GnP as compared to mount, so this little glitch can be annoying if I'm looking to finish the fight quickly from back side mount

As an aside --- I almost NEVER am able to knock someout out from back mount. Only back SIDE mount. Strikes don't seem to interrupt the transition from SUB Back Mount to SUB half guard, either...even with 0% stamina

Not sure if these are intentional? I understand both of these being in the game if stamina is about equal; but when stamina is at 0% for the SUB...DOM has 100% stamina....sorry but any transition SUB tries to pull should easily be cancelled out by strikes. It does in a lot of positions of course but these ones ^^^ don't seem to work in the same way

[Morgan Monkman]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

It is, but only when your opponent isn't actively doing something to you. If he is actively doing something to you, you can't just get up as a way of escaping it. In most cases this makes sense based on the animation. For example, in tower feet on hips you can just walk away and disengage. But if your opponent starts a DLR sweep on you, you can't. You have to deny to escape that attempt first, then disengage. That same rule applies to all undeniable transitions. Now, since some transitions can run concurrently with others (for various reasons, usually because it doesn't physically make sense) who gets to act first when immediately entering into a position will determine the winner. In this case, you've taken someone's back, you press up to getup and they press left to reverse to top back side. Whoever has the stamina and grapple advantage in that moment gets a one frame head start. If both transitions can run at the same time, that one frame head start means nothing. If they ca't, that one frame head start determines whose move will register. So it's not that the getup always loses to the reversal, it's that it loses if you're at a disadvantage. I can understand how this might be frustrating if your goal is to getup, and you just won back control and want to take advantage of that. But immediately transitioning will only work if you have the stamina advantage after a successful transition. If not, you need to first secure the position and then getup. That may mean just waiting half a second to make sure your opponent isn't trying to do something, or denying his first attempt guaranteeing your undeniable transition will win out.

Wow, that's some odd reasoning. Why should I have to secure back side control before I can stand up? I don't want to secure the position, I want to stand up immediately because I want to finish the guy striking. But from what you say the guy in the sub position can stop you from standing up if he has a slight stamina advantage? That's completely backwards from real life, IMO

[GameplayDevUFC]

Quote: Originally Posted by Morgan Monkman

That's completely backwards from real life, IMO

I need to look at the specific animation in question to better assess this particular case, but it's not completely backwards from real life in most cases.

(I'm going to speak in general here, not to this specific animation)

If I have top position, I can just get up if I'm not in someone's guard.

If the bottom fighter attempts a move, the game automatically starts preventing the completion of the move. That puts you in the struggle state.

While you are struggling, you often can't just get up without losing balance/position.

As soon as the SUB has attempted his transition, your top control is in jeopardy.

You need to deal with that before getting up.

That's in tune with real life.

In may not be 100% true to this animation. I'd need to look at it and maybe even try it out.

But it is true in the vast majority of cases.

[bmlimo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Morgan Monkman

Wow, that's some odd reasoning. Why should I have to secure back side control before I can stand up? I don't want to secure the position, I want to stand up immediately because I want to finish the guy striking. But from what you say the guy in the sub position can stop you from standing up if he has a slight stamina advantage? That's completely backwards from real life, IMO

but u are saying after a KD? or after some grappling/takedown transition?
After that "finishing the fight gnp" i agree with u, the player should decide if he want to stay on ground or get up again, he is in total control since his opponent is almost out...

but in grappling shouldnt be that easy... in real fights when the bottom fighter guy wants to stay on ground he grabs the opponent arms than roll to guard, so i think this position is based in it, you have to do a little grappling to stand up, sounds little fair

[Morgan Monkman]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

I need to look at the specific animation in question to better assess this particular case, but it's not completely backwards from real life in most cases. (I'm going to speak in general here, not to this specific animation) If I have top position, I can just get up if I'm not in someone's guard. If the bottom fighter attempts a move, the game automatically starts preventing the completion of the move. That puts you in the struggle state. While you are struggling, you often can't just get up without losing balance/position. As soon as the SUB has attempted his transition, your top control is in jeopardy. You need to deal with that before getting up. That's in tune with real life. In may not be 100% true to this animation. I'd need to look at it and maybe even try it out. But it is true in the vast majority of cases.

I dont ever remember someone in the sub position of full guard holding someone down when the dom fighter tries to disengage.

The only one that comes to my mind is the Damian Maia Vs Matt brown fight, but that was more Maia actually flipping the script on brown, instead of brown trying to get up.

I was in dom half guard last night and i went to stand up, that guy makes the motion to stand up and then waits about 2-3 seconds rocking back and forth till the meter fills, then he stands. That does not seem correct to me, especially when the sub fighter isnt doing anything.

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

It is, but only when your opponent isn't actively doing something to you. If he is actively doing something to you, you can't just get up as a way of escaping it. In most cases this makes sense based on the animation. For example, in tower feet on hips you can just walk away and disengage. But if your opponent starts a DLR sweep on you, you can't. You have to deny to escape that attempt first, then disengage. That same rule applies to all undeniable transitions. Now, since some transitions can run concurrently with others (for various reasons, usually because it doesn't physically make sense) who gets to act first when immediately entering into a position will determine the winner. In this case, you've taken someone's back, you press up to getup and they press left to reverse to top back side. Whoever has the stamina and grapple advantage in that moment gets a one frame head start. If both transitions can run at the same time, that one frame head start means nothing. If they ca't, that one frame head start determines whose move will register. So it's not that the getup always loses to the reversal, it's that it loses if you're at a disadvantage. I can understand how this might be frustrating if your goal is to getup, and you just won back control and want to take advantage of that. But immediately transitioning will only work if you have the stamina advantage after a successful transition. If not, you need to first secure the position and then getup. That may mean just waiting half a second to make sure your opponent isn't trying to do something, or denying his first attempt guaranteeing your undeniable transition will win out.

Thank you for this info.

But when u r talking about earlier opponent's action do u mean only Grapple moves (transition, reversals, etc) or EVEN STRIKE can stop my undeniable transition? i.e which my actions can prevent opponent's Undeniable transition - i tested and i think that ONLY his Grapple moves can, strike can not to prevent it but can give me grapple advantage to allow for me to perfrom my GM earlier, am i right?

[Dave_S]

I don't agree with the reasoning, but thanks to GPD for answering. I don't know enough to say wether it's right or wrong.

It can be frustrating though. In the middle of transition to where I get dominant back side I know I want to stand up next. Normally I hear about establishing position on the ground before you try to strike or advance position, but I just want to stand up and not get into any grappling exchanges when I'm playing against someone like Rousey and I'm using Holm. If I'm able to move to the dominant back side position it really feels like my limbs would be free enough to jump up quickly.

I really feel I should be able to shoot up instantly, but I can accept it the way it is.