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Thai clinch denials

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Old 06-07-2016, 01:21 AM   #1
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Thai clinch denials

Something needs done, any high-level player can literally deny every escape until you're KO'd. There has to be some sort of gimmick cheese that is occuring that allows them to deny everything.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:14 AM   #2
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Re: Thai clinch denials

The transition to single collar definitely, the denial is up for escape irc

e: i think the denial is away. awaiting confirmation

Last edited by johnmangala; 06-07-2016 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:40 AM   #3
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Re: Thai clinch denials

Quote:
Originally Posted by Find_the_Door
Something needs done, any high-level player can literally deny every escape until you're KO'd. There has to be some sort of gimmick cheese that is occuring that allows them to deny everything.
some guys are easily denying everything in the game easily
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:19 PM   #4
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Re: Thai clinch denials

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmlimo
some guys are easily denying everything in the game easily
I really do think latency lets your opponent see things we aren't. How else would they be able to do this? I've seen people deny as soon as I start a transition. The only way to be able to do that is to see it. So either they have cat like reflexes, or they are seeing just a little sooner than we are.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:03 PM   #5
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Re: Thai clinch denials

Quote:
Originally Posted by Find_the_Door
Something needs done, any high-level player can literally deny every escape until you're KO'd. There has to be some sort of gimmick cheese that is occuring that allows them to deny everything.

There is no 'gimmich cheese'. If you're getting denied trying to escape MT it's because of your pattern. Reactively blocking clinch escapes is border line impossible unless there's a significant stamina differential / GA.

Here's an example -

I catch my opponent in MT. The most common transition is the get out, so I'll pre emptively flick to block that, then throw a strike. Then they will go left or right, so it's a 50% guess on which side. Now, if that's blocked.. You're damn certain an average player will go to the other side (If they went left the first time, then they'd go right).

Myself and Luis on Xbox have the best clinches and we can't hold anyone good in MT for longer than a transition, MAYBE two but very rare. Why? Because against good players they will delay their transitions to single collar to avoid strike-flick guessing AND they will use fakes / mix up their directional patterns.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:03 PM   #6
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Re: Thai clinch denials

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishingtime
I really do think latency lets your opponent see things we aren't. How else would they be able to do this? I've seen people deny as soon as I start a transition. The only way to be able to do that is to see it. So either they have cat like reflexes, or they are seeing just a little sooner than we are.
lots of people just pre-deny (technically it's not a pre-denial....but they are NOT waiting for an animation to determine when to deny; they just 'guess')

i.e. as soon as they get you into MT...they'll attempt to block the escape...if you dont try to escape; no harm no foul....

....if you DO try to escape; it will look like they have RIDICULOUS reaction time...but really, they're just guessing lol

It can even go another level. Let's say the first time you are put into MT, you try to escape, but they block you instantly. An 'intelligent' player might try to escape into single collar; since they know the other person is ready for them to escape.

But the DOM MT guy isn't dumb; he knows that his prey will try to escape the OTHER way; so he 'pre-denies' the single collar.

Then he pummels you with knees and elbows lol

Does this make sense? lol --- just b/c someone denies you does NOT mean that they actually read your animation. They may have read your mind or tendancies but more than likely...they are just guessing...and for every successful 'pre-deny' they are missing several.

But since they aren't punished for 'pre-deny spam' --- they don't care

(Again, I know this isn't a TRUE pre-deny so to speak....but it sort of has the same role)


EDIT: Kinetic pretty much wrote what I wrote, while I was writing what I wrote....
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:06 PM   #7
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Re: Thai clinch denials

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenetic NRG
There is no 'gimmich cheese'. If you're getting denied trying to escape MT it's because of your pattern. Reactively blocking clinch escapes is border line impossible unless there's a significant stamina differential / GA.

Here's an example -

I catch my opponent in MT. The most common transition is the get out, so I'll pre emptively flick to block that, then throw a strike. Then they will go left or right, so it's a 50% guess on which side. Now, if that's blocked.. You're damn certain an average player will go to the other side (If they went left the first time, then they'd go right).

Myself and Luis on Xbox have the best clinches and we can't hold anyone good in MT for longer than a transition, MAYBE two but very rare. Why? Because against good players they will delay their transitions to single collar to avoid strike-flick guessing AND they will use fakes / mix up their directional patterns.
Question: How often do you 'fail' a pre-emptive flick?

Do you believe that there should be a penalty for a pre-emptive flick that fails?

Personally...I think there should be a penalty for pre-emptive flick...I know that in certain positions there IS a penalty (i.e. you're unable to deny for X number of frames)...but I feel like pre-emptive denials go mostly unpenalized, and missed pre-denies ought to cost you some stamina, or allow you to take more damage when you're hit, or make you lose GA...or SOMETHING lol

Feels like a lot of the top of the top 'abuse' pre-emptive denials --- it aint really a gimmick so to speak, but eh, I'm just not a fan of the guessing game lol

But as you noted --- fakes and switching up your timing/patterns, can help a lot.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:13 PM   #8
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Re: Thai clinch denials

If I flick wrong they get a free transition. There's a time gap (same as on the ground) where if you flick to block a transition, you can't just flick the other way.

Kinda hard to explain.

So.. Let's say in half guard for example. I'm going to pick on LEC ground mechanics.

I'm in guard and pass to half guard. Now, if my opponent has been putting me back in guard I will HAVE to pre emptively flick because of how insanely fast the denial window goes by. This is where the mind game and conditioning sets in. If I flick to block being put back in guard, and my opponent does nothing and a second later goes for a back take, I CANNOT stop it because I already tried to block the guard transition.

Same logic as the clinch, if I take MT and flick left and then a second later they go right, I can't block it by going right (or left for that matter if I missed the denial).


Hopefully that makes sense.


EDIT- to address you not liking the guessing game, here's the issue. If they increased transition denial windows, dominant clinch/ground positions would be insane. If I was on top of Zhunter or vise versa, the guy on bottom isn't ever getting up. It's perfect how it is right now because it's reactive AND conditioning based.

The game is a LOT about reading people. Conditioning someone and then doing the opposite makes for a very interesting psychological aspect to the game.

Same can be said for the high low blocking aspect. If I parry and throw a jab to the head, then body straight body uppercut, bodykick, they will get hurt and think 'Ok next time he parries I block low'. Once they block low, I'll land a 4 piece to the head.

Last edited by Kenetic NRG; 06-07-2016 at 03:18 PM.
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