Bigger Penalty Needed For *MISSED* Pre-Denials

[Boiler569]

I'm going to make a blanket statement.

It doesn't apply to ALL positions, ALL of the time; but it takes into account many positions, much of the time

The penalty for attempting (and failing) a transition pre-denial is too low

Quick example: Opponent is in DOM Half Guard after a single leg takedown. You 'know' he is going to immediately pass to Full Mount, so you immediately deny that transitions when you hit the mat. This happens before you see your opponent begin the animation (thus, pre-deny).

You end up reversing him since you denied him very early in the transition window. Awesome!

This is a legitimate tactic based on reading patterns and also helps cut down on issues from lag

However --- if the opponent in DOM Half Guard does *not* immediately attempt full mount --- i.e. you attempted a pre-denial but there was nothing to deny against! --- there isn't too much of a penalty.

Of course, if he immediately had tried to go to side control; it would have been an unblockable transition since your ability to block that side control transition is nulified for a short period of time (since you tried to deny Full Mount).

So that's a penalty in of itself.

And again, in some positions, that penalty is pretty big! Don't get caught up in this HG to FG transition I used as an example; it's honestly not one of the bad positions IMO

But in some 'other' positions....that 'cooldown timer' after a missed denial attempt seems to be very short, or almost non-existent!.... Where an opponent can try to pre-deny you once every couple seconds with little penalty.

Does this make sense?

Pre-denials are a legitimate defensive tactic. But I feel that sometimes, they don't carry enough risk. Some fighters try to pre-deny dozens of times per fight and seem to have figured out the best positions to 'pre-deny spam' if you want to call it that lol

Let me know what you guys think.

I believe Sugata wrote about this before --- how certain positions have little to no pre-deny penalty; while others do have a large pre-deny penalty --- but i think he was talking mostly about Takedown Defense (which is definitely part of the discussion! But I'm mostly talking about pre-denies in general)

Overall I believe pre-denies need to be a high risk; high reward action. You have a good chance of reversing an opponent, or shutting down their transition and draining a ton of stamina by getting an early pre-deny!!.....but with that reward, I think needs to come more risk, again, for some positions, some of the time.

Perhaps throwing in a slight stamina drain for a missed denial attempt --- or opening yourself up for bigger damage from GnP or Dirty Boxing would work?

[Evil97]

There really isn't a pre-deny. I think what you are are referring to is getting on the deny right at the first window to transition, thus instantly denying or reversing. Any earlier and you are locked in (controller vibrates) and it won't deny. That being said, I really wish pre-denies existed, and if you knew your opponent was going to go for that transition, then that is the risk/reward. This aspect was broken in UFC 1 because the lock in place deny didn't effect all 4 directions. Only left/right or up/down, so it caused L-defense. Now that it locks in in all 4 directions, you could bring pre-deny back.

[SUGATA]

As i tested Pre-emptive denial is punished by 2 sec unavailability to use Grapple block at all and during opponent's grappling moves that are launched in those 2 sec (even if opponent started his GM in last frames of those 2 sec his GM becomes undeniable guaranteed). I think this is enough punishment for missed denial.

But i think this 2 sec penalty window is the same for all positions.

Which positions do you think has shorter penalty window? i will test it

[Boiler569]

Quote: Originally Posted by SUGATA

As i tested Pre-emptive denial is punished by 2 sec unavailability to use Grapple block at all and during opponent's grappling moves that are launched in those 2 sec (even if opponent started his GM in last frames of those 2 sec his GM becomes undeniable guaranteed). I think this is enough punishment for missed denial. But i think this 2 sec penalty window is the same for all positions. Which positions do you think has shorter penalty window? i will test it

Good points and yes I think a 2 second unavailability of Grapple Block is appropriate

I just feel as if certain positions have a much smaller penalty period than 2 seconds.

I will need to think about it and maybe even focus on this in practice mode to find the positions that seem most out of place.

Perhaps you can try testing this one? It's one I just thought of ---

- You are SUB Half Guard and opponent is DOM Half Guard

- Opponent 'pre-denies' the transition from half guard to full guard (

- You as Sub Half Guard in fact attempt to take Backside, rather than move to Full Guard

- Opponent is able to 'recover' from the missed block attempt quickly enough to deny your Backside Transition before it completes (which can be a pretty slow transition)

So essentially he was able to attempt a pre-emptive denial of the half guard to full guard transition (which just so happens to be the same denial input for the Get Up command i.e. Modified Transition to Get Up) --- and even though he failed; he's able to recover quickly enough to deny *another* transition that takes place pretty quickly (not a very long delay)


I'll try and come up with a couple other specific situations. I definitely don't think this needs a MAJOR overhaul as a lot of the time it works well. But sometimes...it just seems that the game favors 'denial spammers' a bit too much lol

(And Good Point Evil 97 *technically* it's not a pre denial --- but I guess the way I defined pre-denial was that someone attempts to deny prior to seeing the animation begin. But with input lag/online lag; that can become a grey area) ---- That said though --- I think Sugata at one point established that you CAN pre-deny certain takedowns? From the clinch I believe; not from standing? I don't want to muddy the waters and go down a rabbit hole but I could have sworn that different takedown attempts allowed for different levels of 'pre-deny' but maybe I'm wrong.

[Morgan Monkman]

Dom fighters dont need anything else to make it easier for them to hold guys down.

People are getting so good at it now you can't even transition.

I was getting denied from moving the other night before my bar would even start filling lol.

Question, how am i supposed to be able to get a perfect swoop transition if they dom fighter can deny it before it even gets started?

[Evil97]

Quote: Originally Posted by Morgan Monkman

Question, how am i supposed to be able to get a perfect swoop transition if they dom fighter can deny it before it even gets started?

The same way you do it now, the meter fill animation plays out on all reversals giving you a chance to swoop.

[Morgan Monkman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Evil97

The same way you do it now, the meter fill animation plays out on all reversals giving you a chance to swoop.

No, I had no chance to do anything. Like I said my meter wasn't even filling before the guy denied it.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

[Evil97]

Quote: Originally Posted by Morgan Monkman

No, I had no chance to do anything. Like I said my meter wasn't even filling before the guy denied it. Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

Getting denied and getting reversed are two different things. If you are getting denied, the meter stops. In a reversal, the meter keeps going. Perfect swoops are only used for reversals. Also, there are no pre-denials except standing take down and clinch denies.