EA UFC 2 Update Concern

[Trillz]

Quote: Originally Posted by fballturkey

I just hope they fix the AI before they're done patching. I played 1 up until 2's beta came out, but 2 is already on the shelf for me until the AI can provide a challenge.

I doubt they can fix them now, you have to wait for ea ufc 3.

[neoncross]

I hope they give us the option to give CAFs their own fighting stances. Some of the default ones are just plain ridiculous. Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Karate and Freestyle Wrestling for example.

[fballturkey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trillz

I doubt they can fix them now, you have to wait for ea ufc 3.

That's unacceptable to me. An entire way of playing the game (and the way I prefer to play the game) flat out doesn't work, and we had every reason to assume that even if the AI wouldn't be better it at least wouldn't be worse. As of right now for me (I know this doesn't apply to everyone!) UFC 2 is a worse game than UFC 1. For me offline is literally unplayable because even with UI off on Hard or Pro the AI is not a challenge. In 1 it was a parry fest but at least I would lose a quarter of the time.

If nothing else they need to add a special 'Legendary' difficulty where they give the AI straight up stat buffs. It wouldn't make me completely happy, but it'd make me a lot happier.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by fballturkey

That's unacceptable to me. An entire way of playing the game (and the way I prefer to play the game) flat out doesn't work, and we had every reason to assume that even if the AI wouldn't be better it at least wouldn't be worse. As of right now for me (I know this doesn't apply to everyone!) UFC 2 is a worse game than UFC 1. For me offline is literally unplayable because even with UI off on Hard or Pro the AI is not a challenge. In 1 it was a parry fest but at least I would lose a quarter of the time. If nothing else they need to add a special 'Legendary' difficulty where they give the AI straight up stat buffs. It wouldn't make me completely happy, but it'd make me a lot happier.

I cant agree with you on this. The AI on Pro gives me a decent challenge now depending on who I use which is the same way pro was for me with UFC 1. Its no where near perfect for a ton of reasons but it isnt the cakewalk that it was at release. I'm playing a card right now I'm 3-3 through 6 fights.

Its not "broken" at all. You are likely too good for the Pro AI which is very possible (a bunch of people hear are too good). If thats the case, you need to use house rules to increase the difficulty. I've had to use house rules for every MMA game I've ever played including UD3 and UFC 1.

I doubt there will be any significant changes to the AI at this point. That doesnt mean zero changes will be made but expecting them to create a new difficulty mode at this point isnt likely. I would love to see it but I dont think its happening.

[Skynet]

Quote: Originally Posted by fballturkey

That's unacceptable to me. An entire way of playing the game (and the way I prefer to play the game) flat out doesn't work, and we had every reason to assume that even if the AI wouldn't be better it at least wouldn't be worse. As of right now for me (I know this doesn't apply to everyone!) UFC 2 is a worse game than UFC 1. For me offline is literally unplayable because even with UI off on Hard or Pro the AI is not a challenge. In 1 it was a parry fest but at least I would lose a quarter of the time. If nothing else they need to add a special 'Legendary' difficulty where they give the AI straight up stat buffs. It wouldn't make me completely happy, but it'd make me a lot happier.

At this point I'll be honest and say that I'm considering it, or at least considering putting the idea in front of the decision makers. After removing the AI's crazy parry/counter punch ability from UFC 1, it has been left somewhat lacking. Although some players have found it to now be adequate, that is usually with the use of house rules, and still they can overpower it when they want. The pro difficulty in a fighting game should be damned good, and pose a threat to most if not all players. That's the whole purpose of having multiple difficulty levels.

My personal focus going into UFC 2 was to make the fighters more diverse, unique, and recognizable. The overall gameplay team's plan going into UFC 2 was to focus largely on the grappling and related mechanics. These two things took up most of the time and energy dedicated to the AI, and sadly the AI's standup never really came together. At least not to the level that I wanted. That being said, I am still very proud of the advances that the AI has made, even if they're not all immediately apparent to users, but there's always places to improve.

Thankfully, with the community's help, many of the issues surrounding the AI (at launch) have been resolved if not greatly improved upon; such as better (realistic) defense and stamina management, smarter defense and offense during health events, appropriate use of the Stockton-slap, etc. All very important things that have come post-launch thanks to continued community feedback and support.

While I am very grateful for the insights and thoughts the community has provided, the greatest remaining problem is actually that UFC 2's standup is not very AI friendly. We don't have explicit combos or frame counting like SF, it doesn't have a network of logical connections going from one move to another like grappling now does, it doesn't even have consistent results for KO/KDs. These kinds of issues have made it very difficult to make the AI always or even often do the exact right thing at the exact right time. It simply doesn't have a good enough understanding of the meta, and building a system which would allow it to do so is way too big of a task at this point, if even reasonably possible. That is not to say the AI has no idea what's going on, or doesn't have any tools at its disposal, just that they miss out on some key details at key points which could really change the game.

Players have found 'magic combos' and guaranteed hit reactions in the meta, which if the AI used would make it more difficult, to be fair. However, these are byproducts of a somewhat messy meta that were not intended. Indeed, had we known of them sooner they likely never would have made it into the game.

Personally, the I think the AI's ground game is on point. At least, it is very capable and if anything is being intentionally held back. This is due certainly to the fact that it was given a fair amount of dev time, but really it's because of the awesome design behind the mechanics and the AI's ability to traverse the data that drives that part of the game. It is complex, but very well structured. This kind of design lends itself incredibly well to AI, and a huge kudos to GPD and the rest of the team involved, GC included.

Hopefully the standup game can get to this level in the future.

Cheers,
Your friendly neighborhood Skynet.

[Ksearyback]

Quote: Originally Posted by Skynet

At this point I'll be honest and say that I'm considering it, or at least considering putting the idea in front of the decision makers. After removing the AI's crazy parry/counter punch ability from UFC 1, it has been left somewhat lacking. Although some players have found it to now be adequate, that is usually with the use of house rules, and still they can overpower it when they want. The pro difficulty in a fighting game should be damned good, and pose a threat to most if not all players. That's the whole purpose of having multiple difficulty levels. My personal focus going into UFC 2 was to make the fighters more diverse, unique, and recognizable. The overall gameplay team's plan going into UFC 2 was to focus largely on the grappling and related mechanics. These two things took up most of the time and energy dedicated to the AI, and sadly the AI's standup never really came together. At least not to the level that I wanted. That being said, I am still very proud of the advances that the AI has made, even if they're not all immediately apparent to users, but there's always places to improve. Thankfully, with the community's help, many of the issues surrounding the AI (at launch) have been resolved if not greatly improved upon; such as better (realistic) defense and stamina management, smarter defense and offense during health events, appropriate use of the Stockton-slap, etc. All very important things that have come post-launch thanks to continued community feedback and support. While I am very grateful for the insights and thoughts the community has provided, the greatest remaining problem is actually that UFC 2's standup is not very AI friendly. We don't have explicit combos or frame counting like SF, it doesn't have a network of logical connections going from one move to another like grappling now does, it doesn't even have consistent results for KO/KDs. These kinds of issues have made it very difficult to make the AI always or even often do the exact right thing at the exact right time. It simply doesn't have a good enough understanding of the meta, and building a system which would allow it to do so is way too big of a task at this point, if even reasonably possible. That is not to say the AI has no idea what's going on, or doesn't have any tools at its disposal, just that they miss out on some key details at key points which could really change the game. Players have found 'magic combos' and guaranteed hit reactions in the meta, which if the AI used would make it more difficult, to be fair. However, these are byproducts of a somewhat messy meta that were not intended. Indeed, had we known of them sooner they likely never would have made it into the game. Personally, the I think the AI's ground game is on point. At least, it is very capable and if anything is being intentionally held back. This is due certainly to the fact that it was given a fair amount of dev time, but really it's because of the awesome design behind the mechanics and the AI's ability to traverse the data that drives that part of the game. It is complex, but very well structured. This kind of design lends itself incredibly well to AI, and a huge kudos to GPD and the rest of the team involved, GC included. Hopefully the standup game can get to this level in the future. Cheers, Your friendly neighborhood Skynet.

Second paragraph is great.

-Grappling had been vastly improved and is balanced and fun.
-Would love to see a big push for more profound character uniqueness in the next iteration (stances, maneurisms, movement, signature moves, toned down stats and moves for ~4 fighters
-more depth to the clinch so it's near the same level of detail as the ground game
-I don't have any AI comment. I only play online.

I really like the idea of that second paragraph and just continuing to try to nail down a way to make the fighters more unique, yet not too OP so there is more use of a great and deep roster

[TreJayMMA]

Yeah skynet the ai improvment from the last update was the best ai improvement hands down and it was much appreciated. I'm just hoping the next time u update the ai ( if u do it) is to try to somehow make the striking better because the ground game is as good as its gonna get. Or like someone else suggested, to add a legendary difficulty where there stats are buffed and they are extremely hard

[fballturkey]

The ground game AI is very good and well balanced. It could probably be just a touch better for strong ground fighters on the highest difficulty (and also a touch worse for weak ground fighters) but I'd be happy with the ground AI if it didn't change at all. Like you said, the stand up is the problem. I know at this point that we aren't getting an overhaul and we aren't getting sliders, so I sincerely hope they do agree to add a Legend difficulty with higher chin and striking power at least.

The AI is definitely better than it was at launch, it just isn't 'there.' It doesn't gas and throw nearly as much which is great, but it also doesn't attack effectively so I'm almost never that worried about the AI knocking me out. I agree that a big part of the problem is likely how the striking mechanics are set up. That might be why stat buffs are necessary.

Aholbert, I don't honestly believe I'm that great at the game (or the offline game I should say) that I'm some outlier that's able to KO the AI consistently in the first round. I think that most of the above average guys from online could do it if they fought offline for a little while. Not everyone, because it does depend on your style, but if you're willing to be moving in and out throughout the fight (like most all real fighters do) you can just clown on it. If the AI gets you down then it can be dangerous, but strikers just never are.