Seat belt position question

[Ksearyback]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dave_S

If it's dumb idea it's a dumb idea, I'm okay with that. More fighters need kimuras and guillotine from back and sprawl though.

I don't even want to get started on how move-sets are determined. I can't stand the way a lot of decisions are made purely on whether or not fighter ABC actually did the move in a real UFC fight.

Common sense would tell me that any jiu jitsu move other fighters have in their arsenal should also be moves available to Maia, Jacare, and Werdum (for starters, and only to be extreme). Just because one of these guys may not have done (just making things up), an armbar from crucifix, or a kimura from side control in an actual fight, doesn't mean they don't know how. Hell, I guarantee they are more proficient at positional grappling and the submissions than damn near everyone on the roster.

This is only an extreme example. That same idea of applying logic -- is it highly likely that fighter ABC can and should have move XYZ? If the answer is yes, then give him the move.

I actually think I'm in the minority on this thought though. Oh well

[Kyle1998]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ksearyback

I don't even want to get started on how move-sets are determined. I can't stand the way a lot of decisions are made purely on whether or not fighter ABC actually did the move in a real UFC fight. Common sense would tell me that any jiu jitsu move other fighters have in their arsenal should also be moves available to Maia, Jacare, and Werdum (for starters, and only to be extreme). Just because one of these guys may not have done (just making things up), an armbar from crucifix, or a kimura from side control in an actual fight, doesn't mean they don't know how. Hell, I guarantee they are more proficient at positional grappling and the submissions than damn near everyone on the roster. This is only an extreme example. That same idea of applying logic -- is it highly likely that fighter ABC can and should have move XYZ? If the answer is yes, then give him the move. I actually think I'm in the minority on this thought though. Oh well

Depends the move. People are dangerous from different positions, even high level BJJ practitioners. Diaz is a high level black belt off of his back, but doubt he trains nearly as much from top position as that's not how he uses it. Fighters can have a more dangerous guard than other fighters even if they aren't as high of a belt because that's their main focus, just look at what Bisping, a brown belt, was able to do to GSP, a black belt, off of his back. Just because you have the same belt as someone doesn't mean you'll be exactly the same level at every position than them.

I imagine most/all black belts know the majority of chokes and how to do them/avoid them, but it doesn't mean they would actually ever use it in a fight because it's not their first instinct. Every fighter knows how to throw a superman punch, doesn't mean every fighter should have that in their move set.

[Ksearyback]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kyle1998

Depends the move. People are dangerous from different positions, even high level BJJ practitioners. Diaz is a high level black belt off of his back, but doubt he trains nearly as much from top position as that's not how he uses it. Fighters can have a more dangerous guard than other fighters even if they aren't as high of a belt because that's their main focus, just look at what Bisping, a brown belt, was able to do to GSP, a black belt, off of his back. Just because you have the same belt as someone doesn't mean you'll be exactly the same level at every position than them. I imagine most/all black belts know the majority of chokes and how to do them/avoid them, but it doesn't mean they would actually ever use it in a fight because it's not their first instinct. Every fighter knows how to throw a superman punch, doesn't mean every fighter should have that in their move set.

I think we're pretty close to saying the same thing. You used logic to make your point. That's all I'm asking for.

What you DID NOT do was list moves specifically performed in the octagon, and therefore, that is all they know.

So I pretty much agree with you.

To be super knit-picky, because I'm in that mood, let's not confuse Diaz's guard or GSP bjj black belt with that of world class grapplers. And the reason I bring this up is that your point is very solid, and makes complete sense: Diaz has a strong guard, or at least better than his top game, GSP has a better top game, and Bisping has good escapes back to his feet. These should all be represented as such in the game...
I guess my point was just so far on the extreme, which was to say, it's silly for me to think of Maia/Jacare being unable to do a certain very basic grappling move simply because the opportunity has not arisen yet in the cage. This point is getting lost a bit, because it sounds like I think they should be a 99 at everything grappling positional/submission. That wasn't the point meant. Rather, apply logic. And if the button combination is available, give moves a bit more liberally when you have high conviction a fighter knows and can proficiently apply it. Then use the ratings and levels to curve the move strengths with more skew or variance between strong moves and secondary moves.

Sorry, lots of words. Point is, I like how you thought of it... you came to the conclusion based on logic.

Now hopefully, this doesn't move to wrestling where we identify moves Cormier might be missing because he doesn't do them in the cage...