Problem seeing the Block Meter?

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaisukEasy

And I don't concede that the game becomes less skillful without your opponents bars visible. That would be something you'd have to actually logically prove, which you haven't done at all. - You can go on practice mode and lab to see what it takes to win a race in grappling on very speeific set ups with very specific stamina values, then apply this to the game. You can also make very important decisions of how much to push the pace in the stand up: how frequently to throw two combos in a row, instead of just one; how frequently to throw two punches from the lean, instead of just one; how frequently to use lunges. Are these examples enough to estabilish that there is skill involved in how to use the information provided by the bars? Nonsense. If you're any good at the game you're not going to blow your load early trying to finish an opponent when you can see he's nowhere near going down. - Don't interpret this as seeing that the opponent has high health and still somehow believe that he has low health. What I mean is that people can get too horny, trying to break the block, even when the opponent isn't rocked. They may throw pairs of combos too often, whiff too much, trying to chase people; and overextend their stamina, trying to bust rocked opponents. If you never make these mistakes, you must be awesome at the game. Are you on PS4? The only reason it happens in real life is because there's uncertainty coupled with potential opportunity. - So you think uncertainty is everything in this matter. Don't you think fighting IQ matters, or being good at smelling blood? You literally said: "I find informed decisions a much more noble skill than estimation. " Now you're backtracking on stealth? Why? Also, would you be in favor of being able to see their weaponry, ammo supply, armor, vehicle, etc? - Not backtracking, specifying. I'm OK with not seeing health bars in Uncharted's campaign. I actually hate most of the awereness assistance that aids stealth in some contemporary games, like seeing enemies through walls for no reason. But in MOBAs it's very important to see the enemies' health and even the build they're going for. I already said it: with information, it's not always the more the merrier. Even in UFC, I wouldn't want players to see their opponent's grappling HUD, because that would reduce skill, not increase it.

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[DaisukEasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

- You can go on practice mode and lab to see what it takes to win a race in grappling on very speeific set ups with very specific stamina values, then apply this to the game. You can also make very important decisions of how much to push the pace in the stand up: how frequently to throw two combos in a row, instead of just one; how frequently to throw two punches from the lean, instead of just one; how frequently to use lunges. Are these examples enough to estabilish that there is skill involved in how to use the information provided by the bars?

I know how you can make use of the information and I understand that it definitely takes skill. I never once argued that it's free and makes things easier, just that it requires a different skill set.

By having your opponents bars visible the game takes a step away from what MMA fundamentally is in real life and turns it into something else. Not necessarily less skill full, just something different.

Personally, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief in a lot of cases as a necessary evil in gaming. Wrestling/Grappling and submissions for example are way too complicated to include realistically. So the minigames, grappling advantages, etc. are ok placeholders for something you simply can't possibly hope to replicate with a controller. That's fine.

In the case of meters though, there is no reason to take a step away from realism. We're able to accurately translate what real life fighters experience into the game, so why not do it? Isn't that unobtainable goal we're ultimately striving for? An authentic MMA game.

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- Don't interpret this as seeing that the opponent has high health and still somehow believe that he has low health. What I mean is that people can get too horny, trying to break the block, even when the opponent isn't rocked. They may throw pairs of combos too often, whiff too much, trying to chase people; and overextend their stamina, trying to bust rocked opponents. If you never make these mistakes, you must be awesome at the game.

I'm kinda awesome then. But not really. I don't see how that's difficult if you're paying attention..lol

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Are you on PS4?

Yes.

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- So you think uncertainty is everything in this matter. Don't you think fighting IQ matters, or being good at smelling blood?

Uncertainty is definitely everything in this matter. Much like in my split-screen example. And real life fighters don't have bars, but killer instinct and fight IQ still matter.

If anything, your fight IQ and ability to smell blood are being put to the test more when you're not omniscient.

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- Not backtracking, specifying. I'm OK with not seeing health bars in Uncharted's campaign. I actually hate most of the awereness assistance that aids stealth in some contemporary games, like seeing enemies through walls for no reason. But in MOBAs it's very important to see the enemies' health and even the build they're going for. I already said it: with information, it's not always the more the merrier. Even in UFC, I wouldn't want players to see their opponent's grappling HUD, because that would reduce skill, not increase it.

Alright, I understand what you're saying now.

I don't think the MOBA example really applies though because those games are not being modeled after reality.

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaisukEasy

In the case of meters though, there is no reason to take a step away from realism. We're able to accurately translate what real life fighters experience into the game, so why not do it? Isn't that unobtainable goal we're ultimately striving for? An authentic MMA game. - Lets pretend we had a replay function that could eliminate all the HUD just for the replays, even the submission HUD. Then good players have a bunch of fights, some with a full HUD, some with the enemy bars hidden. Do you think people watching only the replays would look at the full HUD fights and think to themselves: "That fight is unrealistic, because of those damn bars!"? I don't think that would happen. So, I don't think the bars make the fights unrealistic. And they bring the benefit of that kind of skill I prefer in this context. I'm kinda awesome then. But not really. I don't see how that's difficult if you're paying attention..lol Yes. - I'd love to play you when the game comes out, then. Uncertainty is definitely everything in this matter. - I can't say much to this, then. Alright, I understand what you're saying now. I don't think the MOBA example really applies though because those games are not being modeled after reality. - I only brought MOBA as a contrast to the stealth stuff, BTW. I didn't intend to string an argument like "if it's good on MOBAs, it's good on MMA".

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[DaisukEasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

Lets pretend we had a replay function that could eliminate all the HUD just for the replays, even the submission HUD. Then good players have a bunch of fights, some with a full HUD, some with the enemy bars hidden. Do you think people watching only the replays would look at the full HUD fights and think to themselves: "That fight is unrealistic, because of those damn bars!"?

No. But that's because they're not superficial changes that stand out to spectators. They're behavioral changes that the fighters themselves would notice.

You wouldn't notice on court coaching in Tennis if you're just judging as a spectator. But the influence it has on the game is so significant that they banned it from the sport.

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I don't think that would happen. So, I don't think the bars make the fights unrealistic.

Decision making is an important part of MMA, but it's not as simple as just picking your strategy.


1) You have to gauge your opponent's condition by looking at behavioral and visual cues, which takes practice and requires knowledge (IE: a skill).

2) When you think you've gathered enough information, you then you come up with a strategy you think will work on your opponent (also a skill).

3) You attempt to execute said strategy (another skill).

4) You keep gauging your opponents conditioning and try to adapt your strategy accordingly (same as 1) ).

Outsourcing at least 50% of what constitutes fight IQ to a bar that is infallible is definitely unrealistic and puts all the emphasis on execution.

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- I'd love to play you when the game comes out, then.

Sure.

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- I only brought MOBA as a contrast to the stealth stuff, BTW. I didn't intend to string an argument like "if it's good on MOBAs, it's good on MMA".

Fair enough.

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaisukEasy

No. But that's because they're not superficial changes that stand out to spectators.

That is as far as my ambition for realism goes. As long as that is fine and the gameplay is good, I'm happy.

[DaisukEasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

That is as far as my ambition for realism goes. As long as that is fine and the gameplay is good, I'm happy.

Then we just fundamentally disagree.

I value the authenticity of the game play experience more than whether or not it "looks" authentic. I mean, we're not simulating the MMA crowd experience, we're playing as the fighters.. lol

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaisukEasy

Then we just fundamentally disagree.

Yes.