Why are fights not scored round by round in game?

[RetractedMonkey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nugget7211

A takedown with 3 seconds of control isn't effective in my opinion, you finished the shot, sure, but it wasn't effective because the goal of a takedown isn't to make their *** touch the mat for 3 seconds before returning to the feet, it's to get them down and hold them down. A takedown with such little control is a waste of energy and worthless in terms of scoring as far as I'm concerned. It also wouldn't be classed as effective aggression because that is defined as "making aggressive attempts to finish the fight", doubles and singles aren't fight finishing techniques, and you did nothing else on the ground to suggest you were trying to finish. The "fighting area control" criteria is also a wash, because I've done just as much "dictating the pace,place and position of the fight" by getting back to my feet as you did with the takedown. We disagree on how fights should be scored, that's fine, but you very rudely asserted that my opinion is baseless when it isn't. It's a different interpretation of a vague single page document. I'm done with you, I've seen you be rude in other threads, and insulting towards people you've had disagreements with, calling them small minded and immature. If you can't be civil discussing one of the most subjective parts of the sport, Scoring, and think anyone with a different perspective deserves to be written off, I don't know what to tell you mate. But Merry Christmas anyway

There is a difference between "being rude" and being frustrated with the lack of logical progression in these debates here. Are you truly going to sit here and tell me that there aren't people on this board that think they have every single answer and can never be wrong? And before you turn that around and throw it in my face, I'm going to do something that may shock you.

You're right. I didn't think about the fact that the opponent getting up could be considered area control. I still disagree with that assessment, but it's clearly not unfounded. I apologize for lumping you in with that group.

[Nugget7211]

Quote: Originally Posted by RetractedMonkey

There is a difference between "being rude" and being frustrated with the lack of logical progression in these debates here. Are you truly going to sit here and tell me that there aren't people on this board that think they have every single answer and can never be wrong? And before you turn that around and throw it in my face, I'm going to do something that may shock you. You're right. I didn't think about the fact that the opponent getting up could be considered area control. I still disagree with that assessment, but it's clearly not unfounded. I apologize for lumping you in with that group.

Apology accepted, guess I might be a little too used to people digging their heels in on here! haha

[Malaach]

Here's some old Judging talk I remembered from a thread

Quote: Originally Posted by HereticGabriel

So due to the time and work it’d take.. its safe to assume we’ll never see draws included in the game? Even tho the new rules give a higher chance of them happening IRL with the more 10-8 rounds. In game, we’ll have to accept a possible loss that would of been a draw. I do get that in game, they would possibly happen more often, but would still be nice to see. Same with doctor stoppages and such but making it so they are rare would be time consuming and costly ya

Quote: Originally Posted by HereticGabriel

Judging has been tuned to not weigh things in such high favor over others tho yes? I have lost fights where I had the only knockdown, putlanded them by 50-70 more total strikes and secured more takedowns and top control. But I counter fight mosstly so walk backwards and they threw up a few subs which didnt even get pass 1 gate, and Id lose the fight when looking at the stats for each round, I won in every category.. I feel like octagon control was ranked far too high

Quote: Originally Posted by Skynet

No, it is never safe to assume such things. You never know what features may or may not come into the game over time. Neither do we

Quote: Originally Posted by Skynet

This will never get through to the whole community, but hopefully at least one person understands more every time I post this: The post-fight stats are not necessarily tied to judge scoring. They are supposed to be a presentation element mirroring what is shown on real fight broadcasts. Nowhere in the game/forums does it say that the post-fight stat screen is what the fight was judged on. Just as real judges have their own notes and hidden data, we have tons of data on each fight that is not directly exposed to users and much of it is used for scoring. A large reason why we don't expose more of the exact logic and data used by the judges is so that users cannot game the system. We don't want people intentionally fighting in such a way as to be un-realistic or un-fair, but somehow get the win. Often times you are not aware of the things that happened for/against you in the fight.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheRizzzle

I understand you don't want people to game the system by knowing the criteria... However, despite the wide range of interpretations and often misunderstanding by actual judges of how to implement it, there is an actual criteria that is universally known by all fighters as to what a fight is judged on. Is the behind the scenes following that same criteria? Or is the secrecy also to keep the human element that happens IRL a part of the game (as in, you might not know how exactly this judge screws this decision up in the game because we didn't tell you)? Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Quote: Originally Posted by Skynet

Well...I can't really tell you that now can I? Kind of defeats the purpose of you not knowing... I can say with certainty that we know exactly why each fight has been judged a certain way in the back-end. If that exact fight were to happen the exact same way, it would be judged with that same way each time. I as a person, however, cannot say with certainty how any one fight would go or why it did so without the tools available during development. Even if I was watching a full replay of a fight, I can still only make an educated guess.

[Malaach]

Not sure how much this will help but here's an explanation Skynet explained that people may complain about due to trying to read judging based off the fight total stats

Quote: Originally Posted by Skynet

This will never get through to the whole community, but hopefully at least one person understands more every time I post this: The post-fight stats are not necessarily tied to judge scoring. They are supposed to be a presentation element mirroring what is shown on real fight broadcasts. Nowhere in the game/forums does it say that the post-fight stat screen is what the fight was judged on. Just as real judges have their own notes and hidden data, we have tons of data on each fight that is not directly exposed to users and much of it is used for scoring. A large reason why we don't expose more of the exact logic and data used by the judges is so that users cannot game the system. We don't want people intentionally fighting in such a way as to be un-realistic or un-fair, but somehow get the win. Often times you are not aware of the things that happened for/against you in the fight.

Skynet do we have more post fight stats viewable this time around? I'm not saying it's a bad thing but I never understood why EA UFC 2 had so many hidden stats the game tracked but we couldn't see those at the end of the fight.

I don't know how many hidden stats that aren't on the fight totals list but ones im aware of would be.
- Advancing
-Head Strikes
- Body Strikes
-Leg Kicks
- Total Strike %
- Ground Strikes

Why allow the game to show these stats at the start of the round but not allow it to be viewable in the fight totals menu.
As well I understand why you won't want people to understand the logic of judging. But why not allow the judges core cards to be viewable as well at the end of the fight like Fight Night does.

EA UFC 2 Fight Totals

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EA MMA Fight Totals

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Spoiler

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Fight Night Champion Fight Totals

Spoiler

I'm not saying we should have a full detailed list that says the exact amount of Straights, Jabs, Hooks, & Uppercuts, like Fight Night. But it would be nice to have better detail of what exactly strike I was hit with or landed the most such as if it was a:

Clinch Strike Punch, Elbow, Or Knee
Head Strike Punch, Elbow, Kick Or Knee
Body Strike Punch, Kick Or Knee
Leg Strike
Ground Strike Punch Or Elbow

EA UFC 2 already has stat tracking data that watches these aspects they just aren't viewable in the Fight Totals screen.

Quote: Originally Posted by Skynet

There are two reasons, though they could easily change. Firstly, exporting and showing all that information in the post-fight or pause-menu fight stats would be screen and UI work/time that was decided to be better spent elsewhere (just because it's not there, doesn't mean we didn't think about doing it). The second reason was what I said before, in that the more we give you (and there is a loot of it), the more likely people are to start gaming the system. The easy answer to the second problem is that we simply show you useless information that makes you feel better, abut gives you no extra knowledge of the judging. However, users would never assume that's the case, and would simply complain about how inaccurate the judging was based on those stats. That, and it feeds back into the first point of requiring work from UI/screens when it's not really doing anything but appeasing users. So at the end of the day, it really boils down to the same reason we don't do any of the other things that get cut/discarded: we don't think the work/time is worth the payout compared to other things we could do.

[RetractedMonkey]

The reason he gave for hiding the stats on the end screen is wack. Fighters already know the scoring criteria to win a fight. If users are able to game the system wouldn’t that be indicative of a poorly implemented scoring mechanic? Do more damage, you win. Land effective groundwork, you win. There shouldn’t be any way to scam the system, ideally.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Nugget7211]

Quote: Originally Posted by RetractedMonkey

The reason he gave for hiding the stats on the end screen is wack. Fighters already know the scoring criteria to win a fight. If users are able to game the system wouldn’t that be indicative of a poorly implemented scoring mechanic? Do more damage, you win. Land effective groundwork, you win. There shouldn’t be any way to scam the system, ideally. Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I imagine it's just the edge case weird *** scenarios, like, I don't know if you watch any pure sport jiu-jitsu, but you get points for passing guard and taking the back etc, so you'll see people purposefully lose the back or allow the opponent to recover guard just to immediately retake/repass the guard, and it looks terrible from a spectator point of view and is really against the spirit of the competition, which is why EBI is great if you don't watch it btw. So, I'd imagine they don't want to reveal something and it to create a weird new meta game, like perhaps the hip toss is the highest scoring takedown or the transition to crucifix scores a bunch, so you'd see people just bounce between side control and crucifix and win a 10-5 round or something. To be clear, this is not how I think the games judging logic works, just making up an example.

Obviously, if they had a pretty simplistic, clear cut scoring system (like "do more damage, you win", although wouldn't you have to assign submissions are damage value then?) showing you detailed information would be fine, but not knowing their judging logic (which is pretty good most of the time), it might create issues to give players the ability to see why rounds where scored the way they were, because it might make really, really weird styles evolve.

[RetractedMonkey]

And it’s not like players can’t already figure this out on their own. They already figure out the cheapest and easiest ways to win. We can figure out that spamming submissions is an effective way to win on the scorecards. We don’t need that backend information.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[RetractedMonkey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nugget7211

I imagine it's just the edge case weird *** scenarios, like, I don't know if you watch any pure sport jiu-jitsu, but you get points for passing guard and taking the back etc, so you'll see people purposefully lose the back or allow the opponent to recover guard just to immediately retake/repass the guard, and it looks terrible from a spectator point of view and is really against the spirit of the competition, which is why EBI is great if you don't watch it btw. So, I'd imagine they don't want to reveal something and it to create a weird new meta game, like perhaps the hip toss is the highest scoring takedown or the transition to crucifix scores a bunch, so you'd see people just bounce between side control and crucifix and win a 10-5 round or something. To be clear, this is not how I think the games judging logic works, just making up an example. Obviously, if they had a pretty simplistic, clear cut scoring system (like "do more damage, you win", although wouldn't you have to assign submissions are damage value then?) showing you detailed information would be fine, but not knowing their judging logic (which is pretty good most of the time), it might create issues to give players the ability to see why rounds where scored the way they were, because it might make really, really weird styles evolve.

Those are good points.

I just realized something though. The judging is unlikely to be round by round because there isn’t an ability to get a draw. If someone got a 10 8 round in there somewhere and it would cause a draw, the computations will always pick someone based on the full fight.


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