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Ducks are overpowered

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Old 02-22-2018, 07:33 PM   #41
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Re: Ducks are overpowered

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Originally Posted by MartialMind
Swaying back is the most effective way to make a hook miss, but ducking under it is also very effective and something we've seen in MMA.




An issue I have with the duck, especially against hooks is that we don't often see fighters counter off the duck against hooks. When a hook misses, it misses hard and that is actually a good thing for the fighter that misses because usually, it propels the fighter forward which is why counter fighters can duck under it and regain the center of the cage.... Like DC did in the Gif above.

Holly Holm took it to the absolute extreme against Ronda.



If a fighter does counter after a duck under a hook, it's not an uppercut... a fighter's feet would basically have to be in the same spot for you to duck under a hook and come up with an uppercut.... most times, they miss and move forward and if you wanna counter, you gotta wait for them to move forward which puts you at an angle, then go with a long range weapon. Like Conor did here.



It's hard to duck a hook, come up with an uppercut and have enough time to land... a very hard counter to time but in the game that's not the case. A duck under a hook is basically a guaranteed uppercut.

In real life, fighters duck under the hook for two reasons... MOSTLY.

A) To simple dodge the strike and regain center.
B) To shoot under and go for a Takedown like DC did here against Volkan. He ducked two hooks in an attempt to go for the legs.



Basically what I'm saying is... Maaaaaybe ducking under hooks specifically and coming up with uppercuts shouldn't be a thing? It's something we overlooked which sucks, but maybe this should be much harder than it is right now.... ESPECIALLY a moving hook... I mean DEFINITELY a moving hook.

As you said, none of these examples were hooks while stationary, they're all lunge/stepping hooks. Could a fighter counter with an uppercut ? absolutely. Here are some #1 examples.

#2 example

There isn't anything wrong with the system, it just needs tuning. It's an easy way into an exchange and the "ducker" is rewarded with extra damage from it, the correct response should be leaning back to avoid the counter upper, leaning back should be the quickest animation of the 4 sides, but it isn't.
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:41 PM   #42
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Re: Ducks are overpowered

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Originally Posted by ImAnOlogist
As you said, none of these examples were hooks while stationary, they're all lunge/stepping hooks. Could a fighter counter with an uppercut ? absolutely. Here are some #1 examples.

#2 example

There isn't anything wrong with the system, it just needs tuning. It's an easy way into an exchange and the "ducker" is rewarded with extra damage from it, the correct response should be leaning back to avoid the counter upper, leaning back should be the quickest animation of the 4 sides, but it isn't.
Neither of your examples happen in game tho

The first one isnt a duck. It’s a small slip(what i’ve been asking for!) at an angle which keeps his balance and allows for quick counters.

Example two also shows a problem with the current system.

He commit to a duck and has to throw body shots before coming up because his balance is centered so low. You very rarely see someone duck under and explode up into an uppercut.

Woodley’s one of the few dudes who is explosive enough to level change and explode up and through a strike consistently

Last edited by Phillyboi207; 02-22-2018 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:27 PM   #43
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Re: Ducks are overpowered

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Originally Posted by Phillyboi207
Neither of your examples happen in game

The first one isnt even a duck. It’s a small slip(what i’ve been asking for!) at an angle which keeps his balance and allows for quick counters.

Example two also shows a problem with the current system.

He commit to a duck and has to throw body shots before coming up because his balance is centered so low. You very rarely see someone duck under and explode up into an uppercut.

Woodley’s one of the few dudes who is explosive enough to level change and explode up and through a strike consistently

Just trying to show the movement isn't unrealistic. They're not going to remove the ability to duck into an uppercut, so we'll have to think of a way to make it work for everyone.
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:56 PM   #44
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Re: Ducks are overpowered

Oh sorry I misunderstood your point.

Yeah the duck in itself isnt the issue. The overall head movement is just too simplified to be realistic.

Im hoping we’ll get the ability to cancel head movement into lunges/blocks
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:32 PM   #45
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Re: Ducks are overpowered

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Originally Posted by ImAnOlogist
As you said, none of these examples were hooks while stationary, they're all lunge/stepping hooks. Could a fighter counter with an uppercut ? absolutely. Here are some #1 examples.

#2 example

There isn't anything wrong with the system, it just needs tuning. It's an easy way into an exchange and the "ducker" is rewarded with extra damage from it, the correct response should be leaning back to avoid the counter upper, leaning back should be the quickest animation of the 4 sides, but it isn't.

This is an infinitely better post than "ducks shouldn't evade hooks".

Thank you for adding value to the discussion with this post.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:42 PM   #46
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Re: Ducks are overpowered

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Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC
This is an infinitely better post than "ducks shouldn't evade hooks".

Thank you for adding value to the discussion with this post.
Ouch, just double checkin but is that shots fired at my “ducks shouldnt avoid hooks everytime” post?
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:47 PM   #47
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Re: Ducks are overpowered

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Originally Posted by Phillyboi207
Ouch, just double checkin but is that shots fired at my “ducks shouldnt avoid hooks everytime” post?
Pretty much, yeah.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:48 PM   #48
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Re: Ducks are overpowered

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Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC
This is an infinitely better post than "ducks shouldn't evade hooks".

Thank you for adding value to the discussion with this post.

Ok, you keep bringing up this idea that I am saying ducks shouldn't avoid hooks which is not my point. This was misunderstood, probably because I was very tired when I wrote my post. I meant to say ducks shouldn't avoid straights AND hooks, as in combined. As for hooks, they should be timed well. Unless you are shorter (which should encourage this kind of behavior and make up for a height disadvantage) there should be major risks with head movement beyond one or two potential strike types. As of right now, those are mostly uppercuts, one of the lowest landing strikes in real life.

First of all, I do not agree at all with the notion that body kicks have reduced stun because you are more "braced" by ducking. I don't know who came up with this idea, it is false. Ducking actually will increase the stun by having your body improperly weighted. There is also an increased risk of a body kick landing as a headkick. The best stun defense should occur when your feet are planted, and even that should only be minimal, or when you are moving away from the direction of a strike.

At the moment, ducks just have way too much going for them. I've only mentioned the defensive bonuses, I haven't mentioned all the offensive bonuses such as an easy rock due to the increased speed and power of a counterstrike. You can argue it can easily be defeated with an uppercut, but there is way more to the meta, and it forces a rock-paper-scissor game towards high ranking gameplay.

There are ways to fight on the outside, most of it involves feints and using head movement to counter head movement, but this is a gamey representation of an outside fight. It is simply too easy to stay in the pocket, it should be more difficult. Pressing forward should present greater risks. Pressure should be a calculated, tactical gameplan which involves maintaining distance from your opponent and cutting the cage off until you can corner them and negate their movement options.

Last edited by UFCBlackbelt; 02-22-2018 at 09:52 PM.
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