PSA: More Startup Frames If You’re the Taller Fighter

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by AeroZeppelin27

This exactly. It's particularly exacerbated against high level AI, too. As the AI knows EXACTLY when to throw, what the exact frame window is at the time and what strike will land, it honestly feels like the game tells the AI what inputs I've just put in, as it will counter my shots before the animation has even begun, meaning it technically shouldn't even know what I'm throwing, just that I'm loading up to throw at most. So it'll hit you consistently in spots where you can't hit it back without this impeccable timing. And it can lead to up to 30 seconds of a fight being me putting in inputs and the AI countering them before the animation begins. Now, I know that's not input lag, but I can TOTALLY understand how people would think it is, your literally pressing inputs and nothing will happen because the AI will cancel your shot during the startup frames. And when it happens consistently like it can vs Pro/Legendary AI's its extremely frustrating. And not in a good, challenging fun way but in a kinda unfair feeling way.

The AI is a little too good at it, yes. But in general, this is fairly OK, imo.

For another installment, maybe it would be good to add a variable or how well the AI would fit strikes into the timing windows, especially to make it rarer for it to fit very slow strikes tightly into long counter windows. Then some fighters could remain very good at it, while most of them would just use fast attacks most of the time, even when they could use slower ones.

[HereticFighter]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

Not only semantics, though. There are absurd mathematical consequences to the notion that the game shouldn't add execution frames. It means everybody would be as fast as DJ. As to the animations having a subtle beginning, that's just how realistic animations are, unfortunately. I talk about this a lot, with Martial Mind. I don't think there is a way around this dilema.

if the animations speed up and slow down how would everyone be as fast as DJ? as long as the animations are captured at high enough frame rate it should look fine just speeding up and slowing down the animations based on the speed stat. there doesn't need to be startup delays.

These are all consequences of a game engine based only on animations and math. the next game needs to have a physics based game engine. all of these balance issues would be null if they designed a game engine based on weight, momentum and physics instead of animations only.

Regardless of the consequences, the current feel just isn't right. its a step in the wrong direction and i think most of us would agree that the next game needs to be very different. The dwindling fanbase should be a clear indicator that its not working in a fun way for many people.

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by HereticFighter

if the animations speed up and slow down how would everyone be as fast as DJ? as long as the animations are captured at high enough frame rate it should look fine just speeding up and slowing down the animations based on the speed stat. there doesn't need to be startup delays. These are all consequences of a game engine based only on animations and math. the next game needs to have a physics based game engine. all of these balance issues would be null if they designed a game engine based on weight, momentum and physics instead of animations only. Regardless of the consequences, the current feel just isn't right. its a step in the wrong direction and i think most of us would agree that the next game needs to be very different. The dwindling fanbase should be a clear indicator that its not working in a fun way for many people.

There are no start-up delays. There is a subtle beginning to the animation which is relatively the same for all fighters. But there is no pause before the fighter starts the strike.

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

Not only semantics, though. There are absurd mathematical consequences to the notion that the game shouldn't add execution frames. It means everybody would be as fast as DJ. As to the animations having a subtle beginning, that's just how realistic animations are, unfortunately. I talk about this a lot, with Martial Mind. I don't think there is a way around this dilema.

Im not at all arguing for removing start up of execution frames. I think the difference should be smaller. Recovery and stamina should be the biggest differencess imo.

I also wish move level defermined the start up animation. High level strikers are very subtle when setting up strikes. Low level guys telegraph everything.

But I know that’s more of a luxury that’ll come when the gameplay reaches its sweet spot.

We’ve discussed this extensively before so I understand the logic behind the design.

[King_Clarke1]

Quote: Originally Posted by HereticFighter

what about fighters who are shorter but have a longer reach? is it based solely on height? i think if it scales fight to fight thats a terrible implementation of a solid idea, which anecdotally it sounds to me like it does but i haven't played with super tall guys enough to see it change fight to fight. thats like saying it would take you longer to throw a jab if you have to aim it 5 inches lower? that makes no sense. another thought i had, maybe it applies better to UT and create a fighter, but different body types/heights should affect your max stats in the same way that different weight classes do. a taller, thinner fighter at the same weight class wouldn't be able to get the same max power or speed, even when fully upgraded, but would have higher accuracy and footwork etc. the problem i have with this current setup, is that they used startup frames to create the speed differential. more startup frames = extra lag. they literally are a delay on your input, which lets face it, in this game is that last thing you need. Up to 2 frames! maybe that doesn't sound like a lot to some people but do the math, even at 60FPS 1 frame is 16.6ms. thats like doubling your online lag immediately. thats massive. is it based on 60FPS? most people aren't playing at 60fps still. at 30fps 2 frames would be 66ms that is quite the delay. When i'm recording musicians in my studio, anything above 15ms is noticeable, 60 is unusable by far. scaling the max speed based on height would give the shorter fighter the speed advantage without delaying the inputs of the other player.

THERE IS NEVER AN EXCUSE FOR DELAYED INPUT. IF I PRESS A BUTTON SOMETHING NEEDS TO HAPPEN... NO DELAT NO MISSED INPUTS... I MEAN WTF IS GOING ON HERE?

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by King_Clarke1

THERE IS NEVER AN EXCUSE FOR DELAYED INPUT. IF I PRESS A BUTTON SOMETHING NEEDS TO HAPPEN... NO DELAT NO MISSED INPUTS... I MEAN WTF IS GOING ON HERE?

Nothing is going on here.

[bmlimo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

Im not at all arguing for removing start up of execution frames. I think the difference should be smaller. Recovery and stamina should be the biggest differencess imo. I also wish move level defermined the start up animation. High level strikers are very subtle when setting up strikes. Low level guys telegraph everything. But I know that’s more of a luxury that’ll come when the gameplay reaches its sweet spot. We’ve discussed this extensively before so I understand the logic behind the design.

The problem man are the arcade elements in the striking even if u get a good realistic idea to implement in this game, the arcade part will make it feel useless

[RetractedMonkey]

At close heights and reaches, the difference is negligible. Strike frames based on reach is static. It will always be the same no matter who you are fighting, but it scales based on height.

Meaning that DC will have longer frames when trying to hit Stefan Struve from certain distances. His startup frames never changed based on his reach, but since Struve is so tall, his frames to reach the head have increased. It goes opposite for Struve since he is punching down. His punches will get a boost at proper ranges.

This ensures that DC has to get inside to maintain maximum effectiveness and Struve has to stay outside to get his.

This is 100% realistic and actually works fairly well in the game. It’s just no one either knows about it or they are terrible/stubborn and try to fight the same way with everyone.


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