Live Tuner Set Update - June 21, 2018

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by AeroZeppelin27

I think a toughness/heart buff are.more than deserved TBH, he's currently 90-90 there. But I am a biased Australian. As for movesets Rob definitely needs the lead leg side kick, lead elbow and to lesser extent spinning elbow (he only threw it once, but he did throw it and it looked pretty good) Edit: Oh, and the front leg body side kick lvl 1, he's used it in both Romero fights, technique isn't any wonderboy level stuff but they still looked effective enough. And it'd be nice to see Yoel get the rear or lead spin body kick (I honestly can't recall which leg he threw it off, I think Rear) And maybe a top game nerf, he really seems to have a hard time keeping people on the ground. What are your thoughts on yoels speed (93) do you think this accurately represents his explosiveness? What are you thoughts on say moving the speed to 95 and dropping another 2 points off his strike stamina? In my mind that'd make him feel more explosive, but force you moreso conserve and really choose when to explode with him. Currently, I dunno, I find I can box at a pretty high pace with him without worrying about gassing provided I don't get too wild or have too many TDs stuffed. Edit: it might have something to do with his move levels, I know his knee and a few other strikes are quite high (which they should be for the damage buff) but this also has the inadvertent effect of reducing the stamina drain. Just a thought though. Interested to hear opinions.

Speed is tough and its the hardest category imo to rate. The main reason is they combined punch and kick speed so I cant even do the comparison to other fighters like i can for other categories. For example, Rockhold is a 95 (maybe too high) but the reason for that is his kicks are very fast and there is no way to have that expressed in the game without buffing his speed rating. Its one of the biggest flaws in the game (the other one is the submission move level system which surprisingly no one complains about).

So when it comes to speed, I kinda have to go by feel. I think Romero is represented well overall. There are some tweaks that could be made but nothing significant imo.

One of the most frustrating things about helping with the ratings is that the community itself isnt sure what it wants. We have a contingent that wants to rate the fighters as realistically and accurately. We have another contingent that is constantly harping about balance and fighters who are OP or UP (even if there is actual justification for their current ratings).

So when it comes to top level fighters like Romero and Whittaker, the team has to be cautious because even if the buff is justified, the side that wants balance over everything will claim that he is OP.

[UFCBlackbelt]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Speed is tough and its the hardest category imo to rate. The main reason is they combined punch and kick speed so I cant even do the comparison to other fighters like i can for other categories. For example, Rockhold is a 95 (maybe too high) but the reason for that is his kicks are very fast and there is no way to have that expressed in the game without buffing his speed rating. Its one of the biggest flaws in the game (the other one is the submission move level system which surprisingly no one complains about). So when it comes to speed, I kinda have to go by feel. I think Romero is represented well overall. There are some tweaks that could be made but nothing significant imo. One of the most frustrating things about helping with the ratings is that the community itself isnt sure what it wants. We have a contingent that wants to rate the fighters as realistically and accurately. We have another contingent that is constantly harping about balance and fighters who are OP or UP (even if there is actual justification for their current ratings). So when it comes to top level fighters like Romero and Whittaker, the team has to be cautious because even if the buff is justified, the side that wants balance over everything will claim that he is OP.

Whats most important is that each fighter should have a strength and a weakness, the difference between top fighters and lower ranked fighters should be a narrowing of their weaknesses and increase in strength, but not so significantly that the lower ranked fighter's strengths aren't still an issue. This is actually a realistic approach and a balanced one, a bjj blackbelt like Jake Matthews should still feel an advantage if he takes Conor down.

There are certain stats that dominate the meta, and these should be very carefully watched and averaged. Take the chin attribute for example, a lot of lower ranked fighters have their chin ratings around 86. This makes no sense, your chin doesn't get better as you go up rankings, it often gets worse. Health stats should be average for everyone until they show they are exceptional in that area or weak. It's simply unplayable to fight a guy like Conor who has a 95 chin rating as a 86 chin rated fighter, especially considering the power Conor has.

Stamina also plays a big role here, I really don't like the grappling stamina, I consider it almost useless in this game, it should be patched to affect total stamina and not be a separate bar. That way if I have 93 grappling stamina, I can wear a guy out by using a lot of grappling exchanges on him without gassing much myself in these exchanges. It's this stat that makes Chad Mendes useless since his striking stat is 87 and you will see your stamina dip even if you are playing well.

Lastly, we need to implement legacy versions of fighters. It's pretty simple, just have an option pop up with "legacy", you can click RS for example, and this will switch them to their legacy versions. To add even more fun, you could use a famous look for them, but this would probably be a UFC 4 thing. Imagine facing Legacy Anderson Silva versus Yoel Romero. Or legacy Hendricks against Woodley.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by UFCBlackbelt

Whats most important is that each fighter should have a strength and a weakness, the difference between top fighters and lower ranked fighters should be a narrowing of their weaknesses and increase in strength, but not so significantly that the lower ranked fighter's strengths aren't still an issue. This is actually a realistic approach and a balanced one, a bjj blackbelt like Jake Matthews should still feel an advantage if he takes Conor down. There are certain stats that dominate the meta, and these should be very carefully watched and averaged. Take the chin attribute for example, a lot of lower ranked fighters have their chin ratings around 86. This makes no sense, your chin doesn't get better as you go up rankings, it often gets worse. Health stats should be average for everyone until they show they are exceptional in that area or weak. It's simply unplayable to fight a guy like Conor who has a 95 chin rating as a 86 chin rated fighter, especially considering the power Conor has.

I agree with your points about stamina and legacy fighters.

The chin points I dont completely agree. Lets use the Jake Matthews/Conor comparison. Putting aside whether a 96 is too high or not (or whether it should be that high at WW), there should be a significant difference in my opinion. Why?

Well Conor has 24 MMA fights and has never been KO'd. He's been in the cage with heavy handed fighters like Chad Mendes and Dustin Poirier. Skilled standup fighters like Jose Aldo and Eddie Alverez and has only been rocked by Diaz in his UFC career. Whether that rock was caused by exhaustion or a weak chin is up for debate.

Jake on the other hand has looked solid in his UFC career but when he's faced fighters on a level above he has been finished and was finished Kevin Lee. Now does that mean that Matthews deserves an 86? This is when you have to analyze it a bit further and ask a few questions?

Should we give Jake Matthews a good chin based solely on his youth?
Should we give him a good chin based on his performances?
Should we give him a good chin based on who he's faced?

The problem with a chin rating is that alot of the determination comes from performances and people a person has faced. Jake has fought really one heavy hitting fighter in his career and thats Li Jingliang and he won that fight but should he get a 90 based on that one fight? Should Jake Matthews be viable in a standup fight against Conor based on his performances?

Putting all that aside, I admit that alot of lower level fighters got the shaft in the initial ratings and I've been working with the team to fix that in areas where appropriate. Matthews fights tomorrow and if he wins, I could see the team giving him an appropriate buff.

[IMUHBOXER]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nugget7211

Decimate doesn't mean whatever you think it means, and the switch stance stat is just power retention in the opposite stance from whatever the fighters default is. I don't know if the stat is a direct percentage of how much power you keep or if it's something else though

Thanks for the heads up and info! Knowing this changes a lot from me. Still learning about this game, so deep.

I was trying to spell Disseminate... I've NEVER won a spelling-bee ☹

[UFCBlackbelt]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

I agree with your points about stamina and legacy fighters. The chin points I dont completely agree. Lets use the Jake Matthews/Conor comparison. Putting aside whether a 96 is too high or not (or whether it should be that high at WW), there should be a significant difference in my opinion. Why? Well Conor has 24 MMA fights and has never been KO'd. He's been in the cage with heavy handed fighters like Chad Mendes and Dustin Poirier. Skilled standup fighters like Jose Aldo and Eddie Alverez and has only been rocked by Diaz in his UFC career. Whether that rock was caused by exhaustion or a weak chin is up for debate. Jake on the other hand has looked solid in his UFC career but when he's faced fighters on a level above he has been finished and was finished Kevin Lee. Now does that mean that Matthews deserves an 86? This is when you have to analyze it a bit further and ask a few questions? Should we give Jake Matthews a good chin based solely on his youth? Should we give him a good chin based on his performances? Should we give him a good chin based on who he's faced? The problem with a chin rating is that alot of the determination comes from performances and people a person has faced. Jake has fought really one heavy hitting fighter in his career and thats Li Jingliang and he won that fight but should he get a 90 based on that one fight? Should Jake Matthews be viable in a standup fight against Conor based on his performances? Putting all that aside, I admit that alot of lower level fighters got the shaft in the initial ratings and I've been working with the team to fix that in areas where appropriate. Matthews fights tomorrow and if he wins, I could see the team giving him an appropriate buff.

90 or 89 should be an average for most health stats, that's where most UFC fighters with the exception of CM Punk should fall in. You can argue that they are younger and fresher, or simply it's not been proven they deserve a below average stat. It's the same argument that was used for Paulo Costa, who has very high striking stats even though he only beat an out of prime Hendricks and even lost his TUF fight. From there you subtract or add based on performances. One TKO should not equal an 86, an 86 chin means a below average chin, if that's the case Kevin Lee also deserves that chin rating too since he was tko'd by a BJJ practitioner who has only 1 KO (that being lee).


Conor at WW should have a chin rating of 90-91, about average. He's a smaller WW and regardless of whether he was tired, he got rocked by Nate Diaz who is not known for being a heavy hitter and is a small LW, there's no justification for his current stat. He absolutely does not deserve the chin stats he has now, you would think this guy eat's Woodley's overhands for breakfast by having his chin only 1 point under Nick. I believe you already agree on this last point.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by UFCBlackbelt

90 or 89 should be an average for most health stats, that's where most UFC fighters with the exception of CM Punk should fall in. You can argue that they are younger and fresher, or simply it's not been proven they deserve a below average stat. It's the same argument that was used for Paulo Costa, who has very high striking stats even though he only beat an out of prime Hendricks and even lost his TUF fight. From there you subtract or add based on performances. One TKO should not equal an 86, an 86 chin means a below average chin, if that's the case Kevin Lee also deserves that chin rating too since he was tko'd by a BJJ practitioner who has only 1 KO (that being lee). Conor at WW should have a chin rating of 90-91, about average. He's a smaller WW and regardless of whether he was tired, he got rocked by Nate Diaz who is not known for being a heavy hitter and is a small LW, there's no justification for his current stat. He absolutely does not deserve the chin stats he has now, you would think this guy eat's Woodley's overhands for breakfast by having his chin only 1 point under Nick. I believe you already agree on this last point.

If 90 is the average, what should a UFC vet who has never been KO'd or really hurt have? Should he be a 98/99? Does that just create the same problem you mentioned before? Where a guy like Matthews isnt viable against an elite fighter because of the difference in Chin.

Also Costa was different. His power stats are what they are because of his KO numbers and performances in the UFC. Now the power number may be a bit high but its still based strictly on performance. On the flip side, you are arguing that Matthews should have a 90 simply because he is "younger and fresher."

Even the Lee argument doesnt work. Lee has been in the cage with an elite striker in Barbosa, well rounded fighters like Trinaldo, Chiesa and Ferguson. His chin number is based on his loss to Santos AND his performances against those other guys.

Matthews doesnt have the wins/performances imo to counter the Lee loss when it comes to chin. I think 86 is a bit low and he could see a slight bump but 4 points is alot for someone who hasnt had his chin tested.

[TB5XSBW]

Quote: Originally Posted by irdc

But it wasn't just accuracy against anyone, Barboza is a great and very fast striker with good movement yet their striking exchanges were pretty even save for Barboza's spinning head kick that rocked Lee. Who all can we name that out struck Barboza? Lee was able to hold his own against the one of the very best strikers in that division. Remember that he had crazy bad staph during the Ferguson fight. My proposal for an 88 seems very fair. Beyond that, and in defense of my other proposals, add Lee to the list of people who have closed the gap when Barboza wanted an out fighting game. 87 footwork -> 89 seems fair. Switch stance sounds like you agree with. 90 is an adequate buff for that.

Stop it.

Khabib fared well against Barboza too. Are we going to say that his striking is on the same level as Barboza's? No one with a brain would say that, just as no one with a brain would compare Lee's striking with Edson's. Barboza was very cautious against both of them because he was afraid of the take down (especially against Lee, given what happened to him the fight prior) and he still almost KO'd him.

Lee's striking is below average. The guy does not know how to deal with a jab at all, not even at the most basic level. He was also KO'd by a jiu jitsu specialist, and has not shown much improvement on the feet since then.

[UFCBlackbelt]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

If 90 is the average, what should a UFC vet who has never been KO'd or really hurt have? Should he be a 98/99? Does that just create the same problem you mentioned before? Where a guy like Matthews isnt viable against an elite fighter because of the difference in Chin. Also Costa was different. His power stats are what they are because of his KO numbers and performances in the UFC. Now the power number may be a bit high but its still based strictly on performance. On the flip side, you are arguing that Matthews should have a 90 simply because he is "younger and fresher." Even the Lee argument doesnt work. Lee has been in the cage with an elite striker in Barbosa, well rounded fighters like Trinaldo, Chiesa and Ferguson. His chin number is based on his loss to Santos AND his performances against those other guys. Matthews doesnt have the wins/performances imo to counter the Lee loss when it comes to chin. I think 86 is a bit low and he could see a slight bump but 4 points is alot for someone who hasnt had his chin tested.

90 was just an arbitrary number for an average, it can be 89, 85, 90, 92. The point is that most fighters should fall very close to this number.

Health stats have to be looked at differently than how you would look at skills. They should be averaged at some number until they are tested and proven otherwise, in which they gain small boosts or small drops. Only when there is a clear issue or strength should they have larger deviation. For example, Cerrone's body strength or Barboza's chin. Otherwise, new guys will always have lower chins than veterans, because their chins haven't been tested yet. But this stat simply isn't accurate, In fact, it's usually the reverse, most newcomers have better chins because they have had less damage taken.

It can be that most fighters fall between 84-96, with 96 being the greatest of all time chins like Nick Diaz, and 84 being really glass chins. The average of 84 and 96 is 90

I agree Conor has a great chin at FW, assuming 90 is average, he deserves to be at a 95 since he hasn't been rocked by any punch at that weight. This would still make most lower ranked fighter still viable, because they wouldn't have glass chins but wouldn't have the same ability to absorb damage as Conor.

On a separate note, the weight class is extremely important when deciding stats, you can only count fights at the actual weight. Because being punched by Woodley and being punched by Mendes are two completely different things, so Conor should have an average chin at WW, he hasn't shown otherwise.