Is the stamina penalty for missed TDs fair?

[Good Grappler]

As it stands, the stamina penalty for failed takedowns is disproportionately harsh when compared to the penalty for striking output. In this post I will break down and explain the problem, and propose some solutions.

TL;DR
A select few well-conditioned wrestlers should be capable of gaining a stamina advantage through clinch or single leg attempts. This would only apply to fighters who have been known to gas their opponent by making them defend takedowns. This would not apply to wrestlers like Woodley or Romero who don’t push the pace with their wrestling. In order to counter-balance this change, knees and uppercuts would be tuned to be a more reliable, stamina-efficient counter wrestling tactic. These changes would 1) address the unfair stamina penalty for shooting takedowns, 2) enable grinding to be a viable tactic when using high-paced wrestlers like Colby, and 3) incentivize the use of a broader range of anti-wrestling tactics.

The problem
Attempting standard double legs and single legs, especially with high-paced wrestlers like DC, Colby Covington or Corey Anderson, should NOT put you at a stamina disadvantage. Hell, one missed TD shouldn’t cost more stamina than 10 blocked overhands (even though it does). In fact, I’d even argue that failing takedown attempts should work to your ADVANTAGE in the stamina dep’t, if you’re using a wrestler with superior grapple stamina. I mean, if I have 94 grapple stamina and my opponent has 88, shouldn’t they gas more than me from stuffing my shots?

Look at Cain vs JDS... Cain was shooting after every combo. JDS would defend the takedown, but he was getting forced to defend the takedowns and gassed. I’m watching Corey Anderson vs Glover Teixera right now, and Corey was shooting TDs early in the fight just to force Glover to defend. In what universe does DC gas himself by shooting takedowns? Unfortunately it’s the same universe where his opponent can throw 200+ strikes per round yet maintain a stamina advantage.

Proposed solutions to unfair stamina penalties:

1. Fighters with superior wrestling and grapple stamina can gain a stamina advantage by making their opponent defend standard single leg takedowns, or clinch attempts*. Bear with me here... This would only apply to a select few fighters on the roster - specifically fighters with strong wrestling backgrounds, who’ve proven their ability to keep a high pace in the UFC, like Colby or Corey Anderson.

Wrestlers wear down their opponents by making them defend all the time. They force their opponents to use bursts of energy to defend, fatiguing their arms and making them carry their weight. This detracts from their opponents’ punching power, and the takedowns get harder and harder to defend over time.

Keep in mind, wrestlers are well conditioned for wrestling. Wrestlers are perfectly OK with forcing their opponent to defend constant takedowns, dragging them into a wrestling match where they know they’re better conditioned. See Cain vs JDS 2&3, Colby vs RDA, GSP vs Penn 2.

If Cain vs JDS 2 happened in EA UFC 3, Cain would be limping around gassed from the failed TD attempts by round 2. He fell flat on his face with multiple horribly failed TD attempts in round 1. If the fight stopped there, a lot of uneducated MMA casuals would be saying Cain sucks and JDS could easily stop his TDs. Yet you fast forward ten minutes, JDS is totally gassed from the wrestling and Cain’s just getting started. This reality needs to be represented in the game.

2. Allow fake TDs, and punish ill-timed denialswith sprawl animations and/or stamina penalties. Players shouldn’t just be able to press RT+down without any penalty, yet if their opponent shoots, they get a massive stamina advantage. Simply pressing the takedown defense input should cause a reaction every time, and that reaction should leave you vulnerable to an uppercut or knee. I mean, fake TD into a flying knee should be a thing.

3.In order to counter-balance wrestling defense after the above changes take effect: Tune knees and uppercuts to be a more effective counter to takedowns or clinch attempts.

So since certain fighters can now gas their opponent with TD and clinch attempts, this would be the appropriate counter. TD counter uppercuts/knees would be a consistent, reliable counter against takedowns, similar to how ducking consistently avoids head kicks. It would be most effective against shoot takedowns, particularly double legs from kicking range. One flush hit would cause extensive damage, yet cost little stamina to throw, so this would deter spamming TDs.

[Reinfarcements]

A real life example of someone gassing from TD attempts is Maia vs Woodley. If you put a lot of effort into a shot, and someone sprawls on you, it would be pretty exhausting after a while without a doubt.

I do agree that the stamina proportion between strike output and Take Down attempts is too much, but I absolutely think striking needs to cost more (especially strikes that land or hit block), while TD attempts stay the same.

[UFCBlackbelt]

yeah, grapplers are biased very hard.

You get weird pauses after takedowns that count towards your standup timer which is already extremely short.

I realized that you can pretty much just stall for standups most the time.

and yeah you can throw 400 strikes but 3 missed takedowns and ur about even

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Since there's no control in most TDAs, and they are mostly either animations that are either all or nothing in a matter of about a second, I guess the stamina drain corresponds with that. We need interactive struggles for takedowns badly. Then stamina can accurately be tied into that.

Currently, the stamina doesn't even drain until after the attempt and if it goes to the ground, it oddly depletes significantly only once you get up. The drain when getting up is ridiculous too compared to how little it is when some actually spams failed attempts. It doesn't make any sense. Someone can take you down & immediately get off you and suddenly you both lose a decent chunk of stamina.

Sent from my SM-J700P using Operation Sports mobile app

[UFCBlackbelt]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheGentlemanGhost

Since there's no control in most TDAs, and they are mostly either animations that are either all or nothing in a matter of about a second, I guess the stamina drain corresponds with that. We need interactive struggles for takedowns badly. Then stamina can accurately be tied into that. Currently, the stamina doesn't even drain until after the attempt and if it goes to the ground, it oddly depletes significantly only once you get up. The drain when getting up is ridiculous too compared to how little it is when some actually spams failed attempts. It doesn't make any sense. Someone can take you down & immediately get off you and suddenly you both lose a decent chunk of stamina. Sent from my SM-J700P using Operation Sports mobile app

Let's allow people to throw about 20 overhands before minor stamina tax but any grappling is a problem!

Dont know how this stamina system can be..

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

As it stands, the stamina penalty for failed takedowns is disproportionately harsh when compared to the penalty for striking output. I figured I’d make a post to explain the problem, and offer solutions which I genuinely feel would fix the problem. It’s quite the head scratcher, I will say that! The solutions I offer below would all need to be implemented together; one would not work without the other (barring point 3). Some points will appear a bit drastic, until they are balanced by a detail later on. I apologize for the structure; I wrote the important points as I thought of them, and slowly connected and vindicated them as I continued writing. Like I said, this is quite the puzzle to solve. It’s always easy to suggest an idea, it’s a different ballgame trying to incorporate it in the game. So in a sense, these solutions are the collective part of a grappling “system” I’ve come up with - a system which I feel would have a very positive impact on gameplay. I made a concerted effort to structure this “system” so that it could - in theory - be compatible with EA UFC 3 in its current state. But if this only becomes a list of a few thought-provoking ideas for developers going into UFC 4, that’s good with me. The problem Attempting standard double legs and single legs, especially with wrestlers like DC, Colby Covington or Corey Anderson, should NOT put you at a stamina disadvantage. Hell, it shouldn’t cost more stamina than missing a leg kick. In fact, I’d even argue that failing takedown attempts should work to your ADVANTAGE in the stamina dep’t, if you’re using a wrestler with superior grapple stamina. I mean, if I have 94 grapple stamina and my opponent has 88, shouldn’t they gas more than me from stuffing my shots? Look at Cain vs JDS... Cain was shooting after every combo. JDS would defend the takedown, but he was getting forced to defend the takedowns and gassed. I’m watching Corey Anderson vs Glover Teixera right now, and Corey was shooting TDs early in the fight just to force Glover to defend. In what universe does DC gas himself by shooting takedowns, while his opponent throws constant strikes and has more stamina? Proposed solutions to unfair stamina penalties: 1. Fighters with superior wrestling and grapple stamina can gain a stamina advantage by making their opponent defend standard takedowns, or clinch attempts. This way, grinding your opponent and forcing them to defend takedowns can actually be an effective strategy. Plenty of good Wrestlers don’t mind their opponent stuffing their takedowns. They’re well-conditioned for wrestling, and are happy to force their opponent to wrestle by defending TDs, knowing they’ll tire eventually. See Cain vs JDS, Colby vs RDA, GSP vs Penn 2. If Cain vs JDS happened in EA UFC 3, Cain would be limping around gassed from the failed TD attempts by round 2. 2. Incentivize knees and frames to counter takedowns or clinch attempts. A) Knees. Knees would be a consistent, reliable counter against takedowns, similar to how ducking consistently avoids head kicks. It would be most effective against shoot takedowns, particularly double legs from kicking range. One flush counter knee would cause extensive damage, yet cost little stamina to throw, so this would deter spamming double legs. (However, throwing a knee would have vulnerabilities of its own, such as a straight punch, so you couldn’t spam knees either) B) Framing. Basically the lead arm extends outward, bent at the elbow, using the forearm as a “shield” against an opponent as they shoot the takedown. Similarly to how the “push” mechanic was added, framing would be added with a simple animation and controller input. The frame would be maintained for as long as the buttons are pressed. Framing would be effective against all grapple attempts in the pocket (close range) - but it would not work against double or single legs from range, where knees would be the proper counter. Punches with the rear hand could be thrown while framing, making it an effective tool for players who want to pressure with strikes and simultaneously thwart takedown attempts without being stifled. There would be drawbacks of course, for example there would be increased head vulnerability while actively framing, and it wouldn’t defend grappling if your back is to the cage. It would be most useful for pressure fighters. Explanation of point #2: These would be energy efficient alternatives to the standard RT+down/up. So in cases where your opponent has superior grapple stamina, you can still maintain stamina by countering their grappling attempts with framing and knees. With this system, defenders would have to react to each clinch or takedown attempt based on the specific context, instead of just flicking up or down and neutralizing all grappling. Clinch attempt in the pocket? Frame. Double leg from kicking range? Counter knee. Have a solid stamina advantage and just need to stop any clinch or takedown? Use the normal RT+up/down. With standard takedown denials costing the defender more stamina than their opponent, incentive is given to preserve stamina by responding to each grapple attempt with its most efficient counter. 3. Allow fake TDs, and punish ill-timed denialswith sprawl animations and/or stamina penalties. Players shouldn’t just be able to press RT+down without any penalty, yet if their opponent shoots, they get a massive stamina advantage. Simply pressing the takedown defense input should cause a reaction every time, and that reaction should leave you vulnerable to an uppercut or knee. I mean, fake TD into a flying knee should be a thing.

Love this. I'm down for missed takedowns to be reduced in stamina and everything else. I use knees a lot for KOs against Takedowns already.

[tomitomitomi]

It's weird. Striking-wise the philosophy seems to be that the defender has to outplay the attacker (evading strikes vs blocking) to drain their stamina yet grappling wise the aggressor has to be efficient.

I'm not big on the whole framing idea. The game already has a big enough problem with excessive obscure button combinations. I would prefer rewarding timely knees/uppercuts or maybe rewarding preemptive takedown defense while making late TDD less punishing on the attacker.

About the grinding/stamina thing, I would say that wrestlers use primarily clinch to tire out their opponents. DC rarely shoots for takedowns from kicking range. Maia on the other hand was relying on explosive shots which is more tiring.

[MartialMind]

Quote: Originally Posted by tomitomitomi

It's weird. Striking-wise the philosophy seems to be that the defender has to outplay the attacker (evading strikes vs blocking) to drain their stamina yet grappling wise the aggressor has to be efficient. I'm not big on the whole framing idea. The game already has a big enough problem with excessive obscure button combinations. I would prefer rewarding timely knees/uppercuts or maybe rewarding preemptive takedown defense while making late TDD less punishing on the attacker. About the grinding/stamina thing, I would say that wrestlers use primarily clinch to tire out their opponents. DC rarely shoots for takedowns from kicking range. Maia on the other hand was relying on explosive shots which is more tiring.

Just to add to that first point (Very good point)... Grappling and Striking was definitely done backwards in this games.

- Feints matter more while grappling as opposed to striking. Like you can't grapple with a high level player without faking, but on the feet, it's not even a requirement.

- The grappling is slow, sluggish, methodical, while striking is fast paced and downright chaotic, but it should actually be the opposite. Striking is usually methodical and slow paced while grappling is fast paced.

It just seems the game does everything in it's power to slooooow down grappling while doing everything possible to encourage constant activity with striking. That's why grappling is so boring in this game... Once you enter it, it becomes so unnatural, so slow, sluggish, fake fake fake fake, and this is not how grappling freaking works.

Then when you wanna slow things down on the feet, it's combo combo combo combo. So backwards.