Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

[OPSPunk]

Quote: Originally Posted by GrimLeiper

What is it exactly people aren't understanding in regards to wrestling? You've suggested this a few times but my knowledge of wrestling IS poor so I wouldn't know. Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Operation Sports mobile app

Wow... I could write a book. The simple version is that wrestling is as complex if not more than striking. In this game there is alomost no complexity to wrestling. I will try to give out the basics:

1. There are many different types of takedowns that are perfect for some situations and bad for others
2. Takedown defense is equally as diverse.
3. A takedown is rarely achieved off of the original attack.
4. Weight distribution and momentum play a huge role in takedown
5. The set up for the takedown is as important (ie feints, forced movement, hand in the face etc

I could keep going but these are some basic things that are not represented in game at all or accurately

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by OPSPunk

Wow... I could write a book. The simple version is that wrestling is as complex if not more than striking. In this game there is alomost no complexity to wrestling. I will try to give out the basics: 1. There are many different types of takedowns that are perfect for some situations and bad for others 2. Takedown defense is equally as diverse. 3. A takedown is rarely achieved off of the original attack. 4. Weight distribution and momentum play a huge role in takedown 5. The set up for the takedown is as important (ie feints, forced movement, hand in the face etc I could keep going but these are some basic things that are not represented in game at all or accurately

Bro it’s a video game

Striking is also way more complex than what game offers. You dont see us going around pretending none of the gamechangers know anything about striking.

[GrimLeiper]

Quote: Originally Posted by OPSPunk

Wow... I could write a book. The simple version is that wrestling is as complex if not more than striking. In this game there is alomost no complexity to wrestling. I will try to give out the basics: 1. There are many different types of takedowns that are perfect for some situations and bad for others 2. Takedown defense is equally as diverse. 3. A takedown is rarely achieved off of the original attack. 4. Weight distribution and momentum play a huge role in takedown 5. The set up for the takedown is as important (ie feints, forced movement, hand in the face etc I could keep going but these are some basic things that are not represented in game at all or accurately

Right, so it's not that people don't understand it, it's that you don't feel it's represented enough.

The exact same could be said of the stand-up or BJJ.

Point 1: single leg (ankle pick) when opponent has moved backwards. Double leg when opponent goes for kick. Power slams near the cage. Trips from the clinch.

Point 2: deny the take-down attempt and take dominant sprawl. Deny and go to over/under. Reverse into judo throw. Reverse into submission. Well timed uppercut/knee.

Point 3: I'm assuming what you mean by this is, it's not normally a case of shooting for the single leg and getting it, but battling for position, then getting it.

Or do you mean we shouldn't be given grappling advantage after throwing a strike?

Point 4: I'm pretty sure momentum plays a part of some sort in the clinch such as the take-down when you secure their back - Confirmation of this would be good.

Point 5: the setup for the take down, at this very moment in game, is crucial. I'm not sure how you think it's not?




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[OPSPunk]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

Bro it’s a video game Striking is also way more complex than what game offers. You dont see us going around pretending none of the gamechangers know anything about striking.

Yawn. I am not well enough versed in striking to say they don't know crap. They have a decent understanding. Many have trained. I have heard little info about any game changer or dev training in wrestling. I asked the question directly in a thread some time back. They have done BJJ and some striking. I dont know one of them that trained any wrestling. in the opinion of most it is the single most important skill. Shall I go through the list of champions past and present who have a wrestling base and compare it to striking or BJJ?

Yes there is more complexity to striking than the game currently has, but if you are being honest and not just trolling. The major aspects of striking are in. Many aspects of wrestling are not. It is also underpowered. Furthermore, my suggestion if nothing else makes the depth equal. In so doing it could balance out the game.


Actually people have been complaining about striking. Shall I link the threads? Anyway, the difference is that the devs have made many attempts to respond to it via tuners and patches. If you think that the tuners and patches made to wrestling and grappling are on par with striking you are kidding yourself.

[OPSPunk]

Quote: Originally Posted by GrimLeiper

Right, so it's not that people don't understand it, it's that you don't feel it's represented enough. The exact same could be said of the stand-up or BJJ.Not nearly to the same degree. Have you ever trained anything? Not saying that to be rude. I have had experience in wrestling some BJJ, boxing and karate. I am not expert. I am definitely most knowledgeable in wrestling. But if you did you would see the imbalance. Point 1: single leg (ankle pick) when opponent has moved backwards. Double leg when opponent goes for kick. Power slams near the cage. Trips from the clinch. Ok what about a static opponent and feints to draw out a defense. Key aspects of wrestling. Whereing there is something comparable in the striking area. Not to mention that those things are all underpowered. Not to mention that you defend all of them the same exact way. Point 2: deny the take-down attempt and take dominant sprawl. Deny and go to over/under. Reverse into judo throw. Reverse into submission. Well timed uppercut/knee. A good wrestling is more dynamic. Wrestlers are expecting a sprawl and will immediately look to counter. There is just far more than taking a shot and going to a new position. There are things called scrambles which are a key aspect of wrestling. Great wrestlers control the chaos of the scramble. Uppercuts dont stop takedown attempts. Sorry, they dont. Point 3: I'm assuming what you mean by this is, it's not normally a case of shooting for the single leg and getting it, but battling for position, then getting it. No. I mean that you may shoot for a single or shoot with a certain attack and then will switch the attack type to gain the takedown. This is different from just the struggle to get the initial takedown. If you understand this. You will understand that a struggle is actually inefficient. Watch DC, TJ or even Weidman get a takedown compared to a lower level wrestler. They will seem to do it with less effort. This is why. They dont struggle as much as chain and transition to a new attack. Its no different than a guy who is trying to knock you out with one strike vs a guy who has combos. Or do you mean we shouldn't be given grappling advantage after throwing a strike? Point 4: I'm pretty sure momentum plays a part of some sort in the clinch such as the take-down when you secure their back - Confirmation of this would be good. Not in any realistic or powerful enough way. Plus its more than the momentum the defender is moving. Its also the momentum and direction you move the guy. So if I go for a single and force the weight in a certain direction I can switch to a trip to expose your defense. I could give countless examples of this. This is at the core of takedowns. Point 5: the setup for the take down, at this very moment in game, is crucial. I'm not sure how you think it's not? Its not the set up that is important in the game. It is just the conditions at which you strike. The difference is active vs passive. In this game I have to hope the opponent does a certain thing for me to react. I am not making them react. Then responding to the reaction. There is a difference. Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Operation Sports mobile app

See the above in bold. I dont mean to come off like a jerk, but the problem is that many people here do not understand how and why wrestling work. The truth of the matter and it plays out in MMA. Wrestling is harder to learn and understand. You could take a wrestler and teach him how to become a very good striker. There are plenty of MMA examples of this (TJ, DJ, Jones, Edgar, Cain, Rampage, Weidman, Hendricks etc). I can only think of GSP as an example where a good striker became a very good wrestler.

It is clear most people on this site, the devs and the game changers lack a basic understanding of what works from a wrestling stand point.

[rabbitfistssaipailo]

OPS punk ...

I think a apart of where the problem lies is that some of us criticize the ground game without presenting a detailed input plan of how to overhaul the ground game and clinch for future instalments of this franchise ( bearing in mind that it might not even be implemented by the devs ).

Some have such as yourself and others . What I want to know is how do we implement these complex wrestling concepts into UFC 4 or 5 .

The striking on UFC 3 is miles ahead of 2 . It's so dope that sometimes when I get my *** kicked it's a thing of beauty and I can't get mad.

Funny thing is we the pro grapplers in this game get beaten by the strikers who seem to have a capacity to apply the deep mechanics of this game ...perhaps I should speak for myself .

Someone be it the devs or anyone else needs to come up with a way to overhaul the clinch and grappling in this franchise .





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[rabbitfistssaipailo]

But the way what about big cee does he still play ? Haven't heard about him in a quite a while .

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[GrimLeiper]

As someone had mentioned, people often complain without offering a solution. All you've done is highlight nuances within wrestling that aren't represented well enough in the game.

I can do that with striking and BJJ.

That's not offering a solution. The things you want aren't likely until a future release but your acting as if you've been hard done by.

I honestly think you'd be better off seeking another game because I think your expectations are too high. Nothing wrong with wanting the best and highlighting concerns, but you ARE acting like a jerk because of your frustrations with the game.

There is enough wrestling strategies in this game to make it viable. I've been doing it the last 4 days. That doesn't mean wrestling is perfect. It means your assumption that nobody knows what they're talking about is wrong and nothing more than a childish verbal prod.

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