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Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

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Old 10-03-2018, 08:50 PM   #1
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Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

Striking has many attacks that require different defenses. Furthermore there are layers of set up within that.

Part of the problems with takedowns is that it doesnt have this layer of depth.

Three different Takedown Types with a power option off each - Fighters that are not wrestling based do not necessarily have each type of TD. Everyone should have a basic single and double leg
Single leg - LT + fwd - GA when oppenent is moving away, GA on kicks
double leg - LT + back - GA when opponent moving fwd, GA on punches
body lock trip - LT+L1 + down -GA when opponent is static, GA on headmovement
Regular underhooks LT + down
Takedown Feint LT + any release trigger quickly

A separate defense for each type of takedown- with three or more levels of semi neutral positions depending on success of the defense first level is both standing other than a takedown finish. That would require a pre-deny or combo of GA advantage and quick denial the second and third level I have listed with each defense. The finish has the obvious levels: guard, half etc soemone can be in.

Pre-deny - You should not be able to both pre-deny and block your face. Just like you cant block your head and face at the same time. If you dont believe me. Put your hands out to stop a shot while I punch you in the face. You need to react to stop that.

Single Leg defense - RT + fwd - leg catch position, whizzer position (new postion), back side control
Double leg defense - RT + away - sprawl with leg grab (new position). sprawl position, back side control
Body lock trip defense - RT - up - stuff to overunder position, shrug off to standing rear clinch

TD Animations The animations for each needs to look slightly different. This is important because that will be the cue to defend diffferent. Just like a hook and uppercut animation are different requiring different movement.

Power Takedowns - The advantage of using a power version of each Takedown is a risk reward. The power version will give a higher grapple advantage to the attacker if the opponent chooses the wrong defense. If the opponent uses the correct defense it gives a GA to the defender. They also take-up more stamina if unsuccessful

Struggle Occurs while meters are filling should take 1-2 seconds. As soon as TD is initiated there will be a struggle state dependent upon the GA, TD type and defense. At any point during the struggle the defender or the attacker can stop the struggle and preserve stamina. For the attacker that will mean a reduced stamina loss the longer the struggle goes and depending on when they stop will end up in one of the positions dictated by the defense. The longer they wait the worse the position and stamina if stuffed. The worst position being ones the defender can stand up from instantly but also deal serious dmg if they choose to stay.

Position and Stamina The quicker the defender stops the struggle will determine the amount of stamina they will have given up and the position they are in. So if you wait too long and dont defend you could end up in side control with low stamina vs giving up position(guard) with minimal stamina loss. To maybe setup subs off your back.

Chaining takedowns - This should be a skill only a few dudes possibly as a perk. Depending on the perk level or TD ability it will cost others a higher amount of stamina. During the struggle the attacker can switch to a different type of takedown including the power variants. Giving the defender a small window to counter. This will cost stamina and probably leave the attacker some level of time to recover after.

Grappling counters - Within the chain is when defenders could go for the pancake counter(I forget what they call it in game) that would be done off of a single leg. The guilotine counter can be done off a double and body lock

Insta Takedowns - This should be super rare. Some combo of big GA difference, stamina difference and TD O vs TD D

Combos - This may shock many but I like combos. I think there should be at least 1 additional category of combos for grapplers. These combos will blend in takedowns of various types off of strikes. (1-2 power double)or (TD feint, hook) or (1,1,single leg) or (uppercut, bodylock trip), (Sprawl get up, hook, hook). I could argue that there could be a clinch brawler combo sets, but that is a separate convo. (clinch break, hook, hook).The point is this will allow for a seamless mix of striking to grappling and grappling to striking.

Takedown Counter strikes The uppercut from hell can work...but only at kickboxing range and it should be a body uppercut. well timed knees should give the GA to the attacking grappler if done too early and missed. It should do minimal to no damage if the rear knee doesnt pass the front knee by the time the attacker is in on the legs. It should lead to an insta takedown. However, if that knee passes the other before the grappler gets those legs it should be a rock or worse automatically. I wouldnt mind elbows to the head off of a double leg.

This system does not require a convoluted set-up for a simple double leg. It requires real thought in countering and initiating takedowns that is equivalent to the thought required in striking. The use of feints, disengaging to ID defense, etc, etc can allow for tremendous more depth.

EA and the makers of EA UFC 3 and EA UFC 4 please feel free to use this system without fear of litigation on my part. I freely give you this intellectual property.

No excuse now. This would not be that much to add.
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Old 10-03-2018, 08:55 PM   #2
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Re: Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

Not to toot my own horn, but the thing that makes this system work is that if you have ever wrestled or been in a fight or combat sport situation this should all make sense with little reason to explain why it would work that way.

The only silly rules that might come into play is how does one gain GA. I personally think that GA should exist right off the bat based off of stats requiring some fighters to really have to focus on defending the takedown.

For example if you are Barboza against Khabib...you cant just plod fwd. You need to back up to create space for striking or you will get shutdown. You need to really strategize.
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:01 PM   #3
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Re: Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

Quote:
Originally Posted by OPSPunk
Striking has many attacks that require different defenses. Furthermore there are layers of set up within that.

Part of the problems with takedowns is that it doesnt have this layer of depth.

Three different Takedown Types with a power option off each - Fighters that are not wrestling based do not necessarily have each type of TD. Everyone should have a basic single and double leg
Single leg - LT + fwd - GA when oppenent is moving away, GA on kicks
double leg - LT + back - GA when opponent moving fwd, GA on punches
body lock trip - LT+L1 + down -GA when opponent is static, GA on headmovement
Regular underhooks LT + down
Takedown Feint LT + any release trigger quickly

A separate defense for each type of takedown- with three or more levels of semi neutral positions depending on success of the defense first level is both standing other than a takedown finish. That would require a pre-deny or combo of GA advantage and quick denial the second and third level I have listed with each defense. The finish has the obvious levels: guard, half etc soemone can be in.

Pre-deny - You should not be able to both pre-deny and block your face. Just like you cant block your head and face at the same time. If you dont believe me. Put your hands out to stop a shot while I punch you in the face. You need to react to stop that.

Single Leg defense - RT + fwd - leg catch position, whizzer position (new postion), back side control
Double leg defense - RT + away - sprawl with leg grab (new position). sprawl position, back side control
Body lock trip defense - RT - up - stuff to overunder position, shrug off to standing rear clinch

TD Animations The animations for each needs to look slightly different. This is important because that will be the cue to defend diffferent. Just like a hook and uppercut animation are different requiring different movement.

Power Takedowns - The advantage of using a power version of each Takedown is a risk reward. The power version will give a higher grapple advantage to the attacker if the opponent chooses the wrong defense. If the opponent uses the correct defense it gives a GA to the defender. They also take-up more stamina if unsuccessful

Struggle Occurs while meters are filling should take 1-2 seconds. As soon as TD is initiated there will be a struggle state dependent upon the GA, TD type and defense. At any point during the struggle the defender or the attacker can stop the struggle and preserve stamina. For the attacker that will mean a reduced stamina loss the longer the struggle goes and depending on when they stop will end up in one of the positions dictated by the defense. The longer they wait the worse the position and stamina if stuffed. The worst position being ones the defender can stand up from instantly but also deal serious dmg if they choose to stay.

Position and Stamina The quicker the defender stops the struggle will determine the amount of stamina they will have given up and the position they are in. So if you wait too long and dont defend you could end up in side control with low stamina vs giving up position(guard) with minimal stamina loss. To maybe setup subs off your back.

Chaining takedowns - This should be a skill only a few dudes possibly as a perk. Depending on the perk level or TD ability it will cost others a higher amount of stamina. During the struggle the attacker can switch to a different type of takedown including the power variants. Giving the defender a small window to counter. This will cost stamina and probably leave the attacker some level of time to recover after.

Grappling counters - Within the chain is when defenders could go for the pancake counter(I forget what they call it in game) that would be done off of a single leg. The guilotine counter can be done off a double and body lock

Insta Takedowns - This should be super rare. Some combo of big GA difference, stamina difference and TD O vs TD D

Combos - This may shock many but I like combos. I think there should be at least 1 additional category of combos for grapplers. These combos will blend in takedowns of various types off of strikes. (1-2 power double)or (TD feint, hook) or (1,1,single leg) or (uppercut, bodylock trip), (Sprawl get up, hook, hook). I could argue that there could be a clinch brawler combo sets, but that is a separate convo. (clinch break, hook, hook).The point is this will allow for a seamless mix of striking to grappling and grappling to striking.

Takedown Counter strikes The uppercut from hell can work...but only at kickboxing range and it should be a body uppercut. well timed knees should give the GA to the attacking grappler if done too early and missed. It should do minimal to no damage if the rear knee doesnt pass the front knee by the time the attacker is in on the legs. It should lead to an insta takedown. However, if that knee passes the other before the grappler gets those legs it should be a rock or worse automatically. I wouldnt mind elbows to the head off of a double leg.

This system does not require a convoluted set-up for a simple double leg. It requires real thought in countering and initiating takedowns that is equivalent to the thought required in striking. The use of feints, disengaging to ID defense, etc, etc can allow for tremendous more depth.

EA and the makers of EA UFC 3 and EA UFC 4 please feel free to use this system without fear of litigation on my part. I freely give you this intellectual property.

No excuse now. This would not be that much to add.
As a wrestler, I like a lot of this.
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:08 PM   #4
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Re: Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

Quote:
Originally Posted by RomeroXVII
As a wrestler, I like a lot of this.
Not to toot my own horn again, but this is better than any suggestion a certain gamechanger has EVER made. It also would not too many resources to do. This should have been done from the start. But there is no reason they couldnt have a system of this level by UFC 4.

I really think the problem is that wrestling is a huge part of MMA. However, I dont think the people making the game or the people giving them feedback understand wrestling enough.

I could actually live with the existing ground game. Just because creating a system there I think would require using different parts of the controller and might even be too overwhelming for even hardcore fans. The existing system presents BJJ as a progression of positions with varying levels of control. The game presents that general concept.

Last edited by OPSPunk; 10-03-2018 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:02 AM   #5
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Re: Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

Good details. Having different denial directions on the shooting TDs, would probably make them OP, though.
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Old 10-04-2018, 05:03 PM   #6
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Re: Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

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Originally Posted by Solid_Altair
Good details. Having different denial directions on the shooting TDs, would probably make them OP, though.
1. Yes it makes TD dangerous. This will stop strikers from going crazy. They will have to be measured. You will have to be aware of the takedown which will actually help striking. Just like real MMA. It will probably reduce the crazy striking numbers.

2. Not every fighter will have all 3 TD. They may have 1 or 2. With varying levels. Therefore someone like Hunt may only have a single leg. Level 1. You will not be so worried about defending the takedown. Khabib will have all but higher level for single leg and body lock. This will make him land more strikes than his striking ability alone would allow him. Just like real life.

3. Varying levels. Maia may have just a single leg, but it’s lvl 5. You would really need to key in on defending that way. But he still has a body lock u need to be on your toes for. This would give grapplers individuality

4. The movelvl, the takedown type attempted, GA, stamina, TD off, TD def, will all contribute to the size of the denial window

Last edited by OPSPunk; 10-04-2018 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:21 PM   #7
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Re: Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

I find it interesting that guys here who have cropped on everything I have said don’t bother commenting here. They know that I am 100% correct in my idea. They will never say it for two reasons

1. They don’t want to give me credit
2. By giving me credit you have to acknowledge the weakness of the game and these butt huggers would never acknowledge that
3. They have never provided an original idea on this forum and it would be painfully obvious if they responded
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Old 10-04-2018, 09:42 PM   #8
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Re: Takedowns - This is what the system should be like

Quote:
Originally Posted by OPSPunk
I find it interesting that guys here who have cropped on everything I have said don’t bother commenting here. They know that I am 100% correct in my idea. They will never say it for two reasons

1. They don’t want to give me credit
2. By giving me credit you have to acknowledge the weakness of the game and these butt huggers would never acknowledge that
3. They have never provided an original idea on this forum and it would be painfully obvious if they responded
Your ego is pretty funny

I think it all sounds pretty good. I dont really have anything else to add. It’s more of a UFC 4 wishlist thing and I’m still tryna come up with small stuff that can be added for UFC 3
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