ESFL 50 THOUGHTS ETC

[ryangil23]

can see the meta has changed quite a bit recently. A lot of push kicks and knees particularly.

[Good Grappler]

So I just checked out the stream replay, and just watched a couple of the fights. Few things worth noting:

1) That guy who played Kenetic had the most insane denials I’ve ever seen. He was hitting denials that no one hits on reaction... I’m talking super obscure transition and even fakes. At first I thought it was luck, but it just kept happening. Like, you know those transitions and fakes from certain positions, where you just don’t even bother trying to deny it because it’s hopeless? Yeah... he was denying those transitions. After that initial exchange on the ground, I’m sure Kenetic was a bit puzzled by that. Kenetic did pretty much everything right, based upon the currently understood meta. Mixing up the timing, constant faking, occasionally commiting... but it just didn’t matter. I mean, I used to always think “what if some guy comes along, and he can just deny every transition, even fakes. It would shut down anyone’s ground game”. What this guy did against Kenetic was pretty much that.

2. Dmart’s performance against LemusKhan, specifically the way he went straight for transitions without faking or settling first. He was extremely active and ruthless. As soon as it hit the ground, he immediately transitioned to HG (no fakes or anything)... and he just maintained the pace from there. Then the constant submission attempts, and relentless positional advancing really asserted that “I’m here to grind” vibe. Very overwhelming playstyle. Lemuskhan never got a chance to get started or establish any type of rhythm... he was always reacting to what Dmart was doing. Also, I think LemusKhan’s multi-directional submission escape strategy is a flaw... he should stick to two directions *especially* in later gates when he’s already made some progress. But I digress. Overall, very interesting attack from Dmart, I was unaware immediate transitioning like that was a viable, sustainable strategy.

3. Lurchingdart picked Dana White against IIProdigysII’s Jacare Souza. He proceeded to get taken down and absolutely annihilated, as expected when using Dana White against Jacare. Lol.

[RetractedMonkey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

So I just checked out the stream replay, and just watched a couple of the fights. Few things worth noting: 1) That guy who played Kenetic had the most insane denials I’ve ever seen. He was hitting denials that no one hits on reaction... I’m talking super obscure transition and even fakes. At first I thought it was luck, but it just kept happening. Like, you know those transitions and fakes from certain positions, where you just don’t even bother trying to deny it because it’s hopeless? Yeah... he was denying those transitions. After that initial exchange on the ground, I’m sure Kenetic was a bit puzzled by that. Kenetic did pretty much everything right, based upon the currently understood meta. Mixing up the timing, constant faking, occasionally commiting... but it just didn’t matter. I mean, I used to always think “what if some guy comes along, and he can just deny every transition, even fakes. It would shut down anyone’s ground game”. What this guy did against Kenetic was pretty much that. 2. Dmart’s performance against LemusKhan, specifically the way he went straight for transitions without faking or settling first. He was extremely active and ruthless. As soon as it hit the ground, he immediately transitioned to HG (no fakes or anything)... and he just maintained the pace from there. Then the constant submission attempts, and relentless positional advancing really asserted that “I’m here to grind” vibe. Very overwhelming playstyle. Lemuskhan never got a chance to get started or establish any type of rhythm... he was always reacting to what Dmart was doing. Also, I think LemusKhan’s multi-directional submission escape strategy is a flaw... he should stick to two directions *especially* in later gates when he’s already made some progress. But I digress. Overall, very interesting attack from Dmart, I was unaware immediate transitioning like that was a viable, sustainable strategy. 3. Lurchingdart picked Dana White against IIProdigysII’s Jacare Souza. He proceeded to get taken down and absolutely annihilated, as expected when using Dana White against Jacare. Lol.

Advaita does indeed have ridiculous denials. No idea how that is achieved.

I prepared for Dmart all wrong. I expected him to try and wear me down and attempt submissions later on when I was tired and damaged. I had literally no idea you could successfully submit someone with the same sub stats on a 4 gate with only a minor stamina advantage.

After the first submission attempt got so close I started freaking out about denying the subs which allowed him to go straight into mount.

I will note that I am using the developers preferred strategy for submission escapes as they have described on this board. Maybe something changed with the patches to make two directions more viable or something. Still, I consider myself pretty hard to submit.

It's hard to say this without people labeling me an excuse-maker, but I question the validity of this strategy as far as exploitation goes. I know you'd click the instant-KO button every game if it meant you got the win, but I consider these things to be against the spirit of the game. He really didn't even set them up more than, "go for subs to surprise him immediately".

As per ZHunter's own statements on this board (when arguing against movement being buffed to a ridiculous extent), the game is the most enjoyable and skillful when two players are playing at a high pace and making reads on each other in the moment. No reads were made here. Dmart has just made it his sole goal to practice the submission mini-game (and ground, obviously) since UFC 2 and brute forced a win.

The ability to bypass the entire fight and get a successful submission attempt less than a minute into the fight and with no significant advantages should probably be looked at. I know, I know. Just block the sub attempt. Well, that isn't a very worthy argument. You could deny the 20 foot double leg too. Didn't make it any less exploitable.

I tried this strategy after my fight that night and had a moderate amount of success just throwing on subs from Jacare. Granted, I haven't spent as much time on the mini-game (meaning it took more attempts) and often these guys did pick someone other than Jacare, making the experiment less than ideal, but it still showed that it's not something that only Dmart can do. Even if it was, I don't think that would matter.

I feel extra qualified to talk about this because I was Dmart. In UFC 2009 you had to spin the right stick against each other to determine who won. I was able to submit people with full stamina because I spun the stick so fast. I could literally do it to anyone. At the time I would shake off complaints because, "hey, it's part of the game". I was also 15. Now I realize it was a way to net wins without actually beating someone.

Long story short: submissions should absolutely be viable. I don't think slapping them on repeatedly without set-up should be viable.

[VitoBurrito]

Submission spam? Haha so sick of these posts from people refusing to learn the ground game

[ZombieRommel]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

So I just checked out the stream replay, and just watched a couple of the fights. Few things worth noting: 1) That guy who played Kenetic had the most insane denials I’ve ever seen. He was hitting denials that no one hits on reaction... I’m talking super obscure transition and even fakes. At first I thought it was luck, but it just kept happening. Like, you know those transitions and fakes from certain positions, where you just don’t even bother trying to deny it because it’s hopeless? Yeah... he was denying those transitions. After that initial exchange on the ground, I’m sure Kenetic was a bit puzzled by that. Kenetic did pretty much everything right, based upon the currently understood meta. Mixing up the timing, constant faking, occasionally commiting... but it just didn’t matter. I mean, I used to always think “what if some guy comes along, and he can just deny every transition, even fakes. It would shut down anyone’s ground game”. What this guy did against Kenetic was pretty much that. 2. Dmart’s performance against LemusKhan, specifically the way he went straight for transitions without faking or settling first. He was extremely active and ruthless. As soon as it hit the ground, he immediately transitioned to HG (no fakes or anything)... and he just maintained the pace from there. Then the constant submission attempts, and relentless positional advancing really asserted that “I’m here to grind” vibe. Very overwhelming playstyle. Lemuskhan never got a chance to get started or establish any type of rhythm... he was always reacting to what Dmart was doing. Also, I think LemusKhan’s multi-directional submission escape strategy is a flaw... he should stick to two directions *especially* in later gates when he’s already made some progress. But I digress. Overall, very interesting attack from Dmart, I was unaware immediate transitioning like that was a viable, sustainable strategy. 3. Lurchingdart picked Dana White against IIProdigysII’s Jacare Souza. He proceeded to get taken down and absolutely annihilated, as expected when using Dana White against Jacare. Lol.

Advaita's ground denials are preposterous. Not sure how he does it. I have above-average reaction times (according to online tests). Like 98th percentile. And yet still I can't pull off denials like Advaita. All I can really advise against him is... don't go to the ground. Even if you're on top, he will deny absolutely everything you do. All you can really hope for is to deny his own attempts long enough to get a ref standup.

His striking is good but not elite. He doesn't seem to have the same ability to react and make reads on the feet, which is weird. But on the ground, it's almost like he's a script / bot the way he reacts to things.

[Good Grappler]

Quote: Originally Posted by RetractedMonkey

It's hard to say this without people labeling me an excuse-maker, but I question the validity of this strategy as far as exploitation goes. I know you'd click the instant-KO button every game if it meant you got the win, but I consider these things to be against the spirit of the game. He really didn't even set them up more than, "go for subs to surprise him immediately". As per ZHunter's own statements on this board (when arguing against movement being buffed to a ridiculous extent), the game is the most enjoyable and skillful when two players are playing at a high pace and making reads on each other in the moment. No reads were made here. Dmart has just made it his sole goal to practice the submission mini-game (and ground, obviously) since UFC 2 and brute forced a win. The ability to bypass the entire fight and get a successful submission attempt less than a minute into the fight and with no significant advantages should probably be looked at. I know, I know. Just block the sub attempt. Well, that isn't a very worthy argument. You could deny the 20 foot double leg too. Didn't make it any less exploitable.

Well it’s not like it’s a common, or unstoppable strategy. It was just the specific strategy Dmart used for that specific fight, and it was interesting to see. You’re a very analytical, cerebral player - you think things through, make reads, adjust mid-game, etc. You literally wrote a thesaurus on every detail of the meta a month back.

Dmart said **** all that. I’m gonna take charge, bullrush my way directly to HG, and immediately start attacking with subs. No fakes, no denials, no E=MC2. No nerdy stuff. As a result, he forced you - one of the more cerebral, strategic players - to react to him. He preoccupied your mind with immediate threats, and didn’t stop because it was working surprisingly well.

Then he applied the same idea to sub attempts. Why not right? If retracted denies one of these attempts, cool, I’ll play the slower-paced, cerebral game. But for now, the element of surprise hasn’t worn off yet - Retracted is still trying to register WTFs going on - so let’s keep going. So he just started slapping on sub, after transition, after sub, after sub, etc.

I was surprised by the fact that Jacare has fast enough transitions to just straight-up pass guard immediately after a takedown. Makes sense I guess... just no one ever thinks to try that anymore because everyone ASSUMES it won’t work. That yellow circle filled fast.

As far as the subs, specifically the minigame... that’s where I disagree. I really don’t think using 3 directions for EVERY stage of the sub is the way to go. On the sub that caught you, you were almost out... but just HAD to keep going for 3 directions. The time wasted on the third direction could have been focused on two, and gotten you free.

[rabbitfistssaipailo]

Hmm... Interesting analysis from you guys . But I ask what is it that Dmart does differently in the submission mini game ? Or can't just be random luck ...******** had full stamina .

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[rabbitfistssaipailo]

#edit Retracted

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