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blackceasar · 03-05-2005, 04:28 PM

Whoo hoo, lets keep the denial and wishful thinking going! Everyone seems to be forgetting about one big thing. WE DONT OWN OR RUN TAKE TWO. The dreamers in here can talk about "well I think they could move x amount of units, that would be profitable for them". Could they turn a profit from this fantasy dreamed up and much talked about "generic" football game? Sure. but ENOUGH of a profit to make it worth Take Two's while? Now that there is the million dollar question (pardon the pun). Just becuase you think that turning x amount in profit would be good in your opinion might not be enough to make it worth Take Two's time and effort when they could take the developers and development time blown on that to something else that will turn them a bigger profit. Its not like Take Two has an endless amoun of developers or development time. So lets look at it like this.

Say it would take a staff of 40 people from Take Two to make the game. Well if they have those people making this much fantasied about "generic" football game to keep the 10% of consumers who would buy it happy while at the same time that staff could be working on something at Take Two that they KNOW is going to be a proven seller and can move alot more units of it than this fantasied "generic" football game well boys and girls, where do you think they are going to allocate the time and staff? For example...and I know they dont make HALO but lets just use this for an example. Say they have a choice of Making Halo 3 or this "generic" football game but they really dont have the staff and hours to allocate to both,which one do youthink they would put thier attention to? Better yet, if Take Two were YOUR company and that was the situation which game would you be putting your time, money , and staff into??? Exactly. Just becuase you think Take Two could make a few bucks from this dreamed about generic football game doesnt mean that Take Two has other things they would rather work on with these people that would turn a BIGGER profit. And before I continue let me go ahead and say that I realize that Take Two makes more than one game a year for the idiot who plans on quoting that part ofmy post and rattling off a list of games they put out last year, Im well aware of that. Dont you people realise that they have other games they think about developing. They have meetings and they go over what games they could start working on or thinking about working on, etc. There are tons of ideas thrown at them every year about what could or should be made or attempted. They reject a TON every year because there is so much to choose from and so many other games that they allready have as proven sellers that they have a sequel slated for or whatever. In the end its not about us, its about money. PERIOD. On top of all of that people sit up here and say they are gonna make this game (wishful thinking) without really thinking about everything that comes along with that. These companies have meetings upon meetings upon meeting about all kinds of stuff that all factor in wether this is something worth thier time or not. Its not like they come to the OS Board then have a meeting and say "hey we found 200 people who really want us to make this football game. Lets take these people off of this project, these people off of this other project and lets cut our staff for this game over here in half so we can start working on this new football game that we arent sure is gonna sell enough to make it worth our while". There is so much involved here. Timing, marketing, etc. What money they save in not having to give the NFL or the NFL players a chunk they are gonna have to spend in MARKETING this game to get people to buy it. Trust me, they dont want to go into something like this if they think they are gonna get about 10-20% of the market share, even with having to spend MILLIONS or advertising and marketing this thing...and they will have to spend TWICE the amount EA has to in marketing because EA is and has been a household name for some time now. Factor ALL of this in and you sit here and take off those rose colored glasses and the "wishful blinders" off and tell me how likely this is a good idea for a company in THIER eyes? Lets getback to reality people.

Im not an EA fanboy. I hate EA just like I hate the Bush administration just like I hate Yankees (all eveil empires). But I have had my dose of reality. Reality is I cant put who I want in the white house, I cannot dismantle the Yankees, and I cannot reverse what EA has done with the NFL. Its time to move on people. Chalk it up as a hard battle that was lost and divert your attention elsewhere.

I know I will get flamed, im so used to it though and its gonna be the same people who will probably attack me more than they will attack the very valid and more realistic points that I make...and thats more than okay with me. All I ask is that when we find out I'm right we can get a "blackceaser tried to tell you people" sticky up on the board.

humpdump66 · 03-06-2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackceasar


	Im not an EA fanboy. I hate EA just like I hate the Bush administration just like I hate Yankees (all eveil empires). But I have had my dose of reality. Reality is I cant put who I want in the white house, I cannot dismantle the Yankees, and I cannot reverse what EA has done with the NFL. Its time to move on people. Chalk it up as a hard battle that was lost and divert your attention elsewhere.

If you are not Pro-EA directly, you are by default by merely suggesting that Take 2 cannot overcome the fact that they don't have a licensed game sanctioned by the NFL ...and still sell whatever they offer (generic) at a profit. Is Take Two as entrenched in the Sports Videogame business as EA is RIGHT NOW? Absolutely not! Have they been in the game as long? NO! But have they made a huge IMPACT in the last 5 years as Sega Sports, ESPN Videogames, and now 2K Games? Definately!

That tells me Take Two is an agressive company, not a passive one as you suggest. Sports gaming is HUGE. We now know UBISOFT wants a piece of the pie. MIDWAY is working on an *alternative* football game and they have 1/10 of the talent VC has. Not everyone is afraid of the Big Bad Wolf!

I agree that anything Take Two offers in football will not be attractive to NFL realists, Franchiise Mode Players, roster mongers, and several other groups. Also, it will not sell anything near what Madden will with the NFL license. But in 2K Games attempt to compete with EA on a larger front, cross-promotion of games is critical. And a "hole" in any genre can give the other company the advantage. 2K Games will want to promote a "family" of games versus losing representation in a specific sport.

Finally, the 2K6 game was probably 50% completed when the news broke of the EA deal. Not much would have to be done to strip it down and change some things. Secondly, there have been NO rumors of the VC football development team being laid off or reassigned. I'm sure they are not paying that shop for nothing. Now that would really be economocally viable right?

Caesar, you are right, 200 people in an obscure forum like this have no knowledge of what Take 2 will do, nor willl our opinions make a difference in what they ultimately do. However, there has been more info alluding to the fact that something is UP versus your doomsday theory. If Football was cancelled, we'd have known. In the last year of the PS2 and XBOX 1, this is the best time to test a non-licensed game to find out interest level.

I believe that is EXACTLY what Take 2 will do!

RailStone · 03-06-2005, 05:20 PM

Straight bitch move... they can't compete with ESPN Football or Basketball...so they pull a Bill Gates

I doubt I'll buy Madden in the future... The games have been horrible for awhile now... even Madden's commentary has been a joke..

Look at Ea's Lineup, when was the last time theyc reated an original product that wasnt bought from another company's work? All it is is boring sequels with a tiny change here or there. They seem to be focused on the arcade approach to games, rather than the sim. Just look at fight ngiht round 2. The haymakers are given such a strong emphasis, your computer opponent wants to get into a slug fest, and for intros, instead of using a michael buffer type, with split screen, and tale of the tape style intros, they go the approach of using trendy rap music, and having flash and all stype, no substance. When was the last time ea put out a true sim? Their Nhl series in its current form is a joke.

NFL License or not, I trust take two to create a realistic experience alot more than madden.

Ea Sports could rake in cash if they produce a quality game for once...

But the problem is that It will be the same game developers 9x outta 10...

and sadly the Madden games have sucked dog dick since like '99

Same goes with Live... Sega/ESPN has been eating their ***......
__________________

humpdump66 · 03-06-2005, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RailStone


	and sadly the Madden games have sucked dog dick since like '99

Yeah!!!....This man knows his sheeeeet!

VCdolphin · 03-07-2005, 05:43 AM

Okay, let's take a closer look at this logic:

Say it would take a staff of 40 people from Take Two to make the game. Well if they have those people making this much fantasied about "generic" football game to keep the 10% of consumers who would buy it happy while at the same time that staff could be working on something at Take Two that they KNOW is going to be a proven seller and can move alot more units of it than this fantasied "generic" football game well boys and girls, where do you think they are going to allocate the time and staff? For example...and I know they dont make HALO but lets just use this for an example. Say they have a choice of Making Halo 3 or this "generic" football game but they really dont have the staff and hours to allocate to both,which one do youthink they would put thier attention to?

How does a developer KNOW what game will be a certain success? Well, if the first one was a hit, like Halo, then the second should also sell well. You'd be foolish NOT to do a sequel. How many FPS (First Person Shooters) games are on the Xbox? How many will get a sequel? How many will sell 5+ million copies? Not many. A handful at best. Yet we will continue to see new FPS games on the Xbox, we will still see developers risk millions on these games.

IF you have a Halo-type franchise hit, you do another game or three. Developers keep making new games, hoping to find that perfect combination that will make for a huge hit (GTA, Halo, Gran Turismo). Often it is just an educated guess as to what will sell well. Once you have a hit game, you crank out a sequel, well before you develop another new game. If you have limited resources, then you do a sequel to a hit game. If you can spare another development team, then you can put them to work on a new game, again hoping to have a hit.

Please understand this point: Sports games are one of the better risks in the gaming industry. Once you have a hit title, you can crank out a new version EVERY year. People expect, even demand it. Few things are safer than updating rosters, tweaking features, and selling good numbers year-after-year. This is a MUCH SAFER development road then developing another type of videogame and hoping people like it. Even then you usually are limited in how many sequels you can do. Tomb Raider anyone? Eidos rode that franchise into the ground with poor sequels and oversaturation.

The smart business move for Take-Two is to HAVE a line of sports games, which means game sales year-after-year. EA figured that out long ago, and have profited accordingly.

What we say or debate here won't really matter much to EA or Take-Two, but don't you see how sports games are a good bet for developers? They have to be done well, of course, and that is the real question for T2 to answer: Can we make a quality generic pro football game? One that will sell year-after-year? Or should we spend that development time and money on another type of game that MIGHT be successful? One that, even if successful, we can probably only do a limited number of sequels for and certainly not year-after-year?

humpdump66 · 03-07-2005, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCdolphin


	Okay, let's take a closer look at this logic: Say it would take a staff of 40 people from Take Two to make the game. Well if they have those people making this much fantasied about "generic" football game to keep the 10% of consumers who would buy it happy while at the same time that staff could be working on something at Take Two that they KNOW is going to be a proven seller and can move alot more units of it than this fantasied "generic" football game well boys and girls, where do you think they are going to allocate the time and staff? For example...and I know they dont make HALO but lets just use this for an example. Say they have a choice of Making Halo 3 or this "generic" football game but they really dont have the staff and hours to allocate to both,which one do youthink they would put thier attention to?

But consider this. Just because a development team is proficient at making a A+ Football game does not mean that the same guys would do well at making a contribution to a GTA, Max Payne, or even other 2K Sports games under the Take 2 umbrella. I mean, you generally don't take a Toyota to a Chevy Dealer to get it fixed right? True, both have "mechanics" but their areas of expertise differ. How effective do you think that the guy that specialized in "blocking schemes" for Football will immediately impact the new GTA NYC ? Will he be able to take his creative talent and contribute to the game in some way? Maybe? Will the other 39? Doubtfully! I'd say 10 of 40 might be a good fit for other games whether sports or not. The others would be laid off.

Since we have not heard yet heard of people from VC on the unemployment line, sought refuge from Big Brother EA, or forced to work on Max Payne III, I think it is a credible assumption to say that the team is intact and working on FOOTBALL! In this era of exclusive news all the time...we'd ahve heard at least some rumors!

Kanobi · 03-07-2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by humpdump66


	I think it is a credible assumption to say that the [nfl2k5] team is intact and working on FOOTBALL!

It's not a credible assumption

humpdump66 · 03-08-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanobi


	It's not a credible assumption

Unless you have inside info...I don't see why it is not credible. There is more unconfirmed info saying there might be a game than not. First, the winner at the Titanium Bowl hinted at a game being developed. Secondly, Take Two acknowledged the "talented" football development team at VC when they announced the MLB deal and the fact that they were still under the TT umbrella. Yes, all this is unconfirmed, but I believe we would have heard more if TT was going to end Football than continue it.

***What EXACTLY do you base your skepticism on? I play against a Q & A guy from VC regularly....and without telling me anything...he's alluding to a thumbs up!

03-05-2005, 04:28 PM	#49
blackceasar MVP OVR: 11 Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: KC	Re: EA owning the rights to football games Whoo hoo, lets keep the denial and wishful thinking going! Everyone seems to be forgetting about one big thing. WE DONT OWN OR RUN TAKE TWO. The dreamers in here can talk about "well I think they could move x amount of units, that would be profitable for them". Could they turn a profit from this fantasy dreamed up and much talked about "generic" football game? Sure. but ENOUGH of a profit to make it worth Take Two's while? Now that there is the million dollar question (pardon the pun). Just becuase you think that turning x amount in profit would be good in your opinion might not be enough to make it worth Take Two's time and effort when they could take the developers and development time blown on that to something else that will turn them a bigger profit. Its not like Take Two has an endless amoun of developers or development time. So lets look at it like this. Say it would take a staff of 40 people from Take Two to make the game. Well if they have those people making this much fantasied about "generic" football game to keep the 10% of consumers who would buy it happy while at the same time that staff could be working on something at Take Two that they KNOW is going to be a proven seller and can move alot more units of it than this fantasied "generic" football game well boys and girls, where do you think they are going to allocate the time and staff? For example...and I know they dont make HALO but lets just use this for an example. Say they have a choice of Making Halo 3 or this "generic" football game but they really dont have the staff and hours to allocate to both,which one do youthink they would put thier attention to? Better yet, if Take Two were YOUR company and that was the situation which game would you be putting your time, money , and staff into??? Exactly. Just becuase you think Take Two could make a few bucks from this dreamed about generic football game doesnt mean that Take Two has other things they would rather work on with these people that would turn a BIGGER profit. And before I continue let me go ahead and say that I realize that Take Two makes more than one game a year for the idiot who plans on quoting that part ofmy post and rattling off a list of games they put out last year, Im well aware of that. Dont you people realise that they have other games they think about developing. They have meetings and they go over what games they could start working on or thinking about working on, etc. There are tons of ideas thrown at them every year about what could or should be made or attempted. They reject a TON every year because there is so much to choose from and so many other games that they allready have as proven sellers that they have a sequel slated for or whatever. In the end its not about us, its about money. PERIOD. On top of all of that people sit up here and say they are gonna make this game (wishful thinking) without really thinking about everything that comes along with that. These companies have meetings upon meetings upon meeting about all kinds of stuff that all factor in wether this is something worth thier time or not. Its not like they come to the OS Board then have a meeting and say "hey we found 200 people who really want us to make this football game. Lets take these people off of this project, these people off of this other project and lets cut our staff for this game over here in half so we can start working on this new football game that we arent sure is gonna sell enough to make it worth our while". There is so much involved here. Timing, marketing, etc. What money they save in not having to give the NFL or the NFL players a chunk they are gonna have to spend in MARKETING this game to get people to buy it. Trust me, they dont want to go into something like this if they think they are gonna get about 10-20% of the market share, even with having to spend MILLIONS or advertising and marketing this thing...and they will have to spend TWICE the amount EA has to in marketing because EA is and has been a household name for some time now. Factor ALL of this in and you sit here and take off those rose colored glasses and the "wishful blinders" off and tell me how likely this is a good idea for a company in THIER eyes? Lets getback to reality people. Im not an EA fanboy. I hate EA just like I hate the Bush administration just like I hate Yankees (all eveil empires). But I have had my dose of reality. Reality is I cant put who I want in the white house, I cannot dismantle the Yankees, and I cannot reverse what EA has done with the NFL. Its time to move on people. Chalk it up as a hard battle that was lost and divert your attention elsewhere. I know I will get flamed, im so used to it though and its gonna be the same people who will probably attack me more than they will attack the very valid and more realistic points that I make...and thats more than okay with me. All I ask is that when we find out I'm right we can get a "blackceaser tried to tell you people" sticky up on the board. Last edited by blackceasar; 03-05-2005 at 04:48 PM.

03-06-2005, 05:20 PM	#51
RailStone Banned OVR: 5 Join Date: Jun 2004	Ea has falled off.. Hard.. Straight bitch move... they can't compete with ESPN Football or Basketball...so they pull a Bill Gates I doubt I'll buy Madden in the future... The games have been horrible for awhile now... even Madden's commentary has been a joke.. Look at Ea's Lineup, when was the last time theyc reated an original product that wasnt bought from another company's work? All it is is boring sequels with a tiny change here or there. They seem to be focused on the arcade approach to games, rather than the sim. Just look at fight ngiht round 2. The haymakers are given such a strong emphasis, your computer opponent wants to get into a slug fest, and for intros, instead of using a michael buffer type, with split screen, and tale of the tape style intros, they go the approach of using trendy rap music, and having flash and all stype, no substance. When was the last time ea put out a true sim? Their Nhl series in its current form is a joke. NFL License or not, I trust take two to create a realistic experience alot more than madden. Ea Sports could rake in cash if they produce a quality game for once... But the problem is that It will be the same game developers 9x outta 10... and sadly the Madden games have sucked dog dick since like '99 Same goes with Live... Sega/ESPN has been eating their **...... __________________ Last edited by RailStone; 03-06-2005 at 05:22 PM.*

03-07-2005, 05:43 AM	#53
VCdolphin Pro OVR: 4 Join Date: Jul 2004	Re: EA owning the rights to football games Okay, let's take a closer look at this logic: Say it would take a staff of 40 people from Take Two to make the game. Well if they have those people making this much fantasied about "generic" football game to keep the 10% of consumers who would buy it happy while at the same time that staff could be working on something at Take Two that they KNOW is going to be a proven seller and can move alot more units of it than this fantasied "generic" football game well boys and girls, where do you think they are going to allocate the time and staff? For example...and I know they dont make HALO but lets just use this for an example. Say they have a choice of Making Halo 3 or this "generic" football game but they really dont have the staff and hours to allocate to both,which one do youthink they would put thier attention to? How does a developer KNOW what game will be a certain success? Well, if the first one was a hit, like Halo, then the second should also sell well. You'd be foolish NOT to do a sequel. How many FPS (First Person Shooters) games are on the Xbox? How many will get a sequel? How many will sell 5+ million copies? Not many. A handful at best. Yet we will continue to see new FPS games on the Xbox, we will still see developers risk millions on these games. IF you have a Halo-type franchise hit, you do another game or three. Developers keep making new games, hoping to find that perfect combination that will make for a huge hit (GTA, Halo, Gran Turismo). Often it is just an educated guess as to what will sell well. Once you have a hit game, you crank out a sequel, well before you develop another new game. If you have limited resources, then you do a sequel to a hit game. If you can spare another development team, then you can put them to work on a new game, again hoping to have a hit. Please understand this point: Sports games are one of the better risks in the gaming industry. Once you have a hit title, you can crank out a new version EVERY year. People expect, even demand it. Few things are safer than updating rosters, tweaking features, and selling good numbers year-after-year. This is a MUCH SAFER development road then developing another type of videogame and hoping people like it. Even then you usually are limited in how many sequels you can do. Tomb Raider anyone? Eidos rode that franchise into the ground with poor sequels and oversaturation. The smart business move for Take-Two is to HAVE a line of sports games, which means game sales year-after-year. EA figured that out long ago, and have profited accordingly. What we say or debate here won't really matter much to EA or Take-Two, but don't you see how sports games are a good bet for developers? They have to be done well, of course, and that is the real question for T2 to answer: Can we make a quality generic pro football game? One that will sell year-after-year? Or should we spend that development time and money on another type of game that MIGHT be successful? One that, even if successful, we can probably only do a limited number of sequels for and certainly not year-after-year?

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EA owning the rights to football games