Do you think No News is good news?

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

Gotta disagree with that, although I'm sure you're much more knowledgeable about the series than I am. I think the game made significant improvements from 2004 to 2005, if only because developing the game w/the XBox in mind allowed them more freedom to do many more things. I think the game took a big jump from NFL2k to 2K1, then stagnated. If VC had been able to get around it's biggest issue early on (directional control) they would've had many more fans early on. Hell, people still can complain legitimately that the control isn't what it should be. The funny looking running style also kept many people away early on. While I agree that there are gonna be people that prefer one game or the other simply because of preference, I think a big reason 2k5 was successful was because of it's gameplay. The price tag/curiosity/perhaps dissatisfaction with Madden brought them in, word of mouth and the gameplay kept people coming.

I can only assume that you haven't played much before the last year or two (judging from you saying I'm probably more knowledgeable). The complaints about directional control came from Madden fans. When they started, most of those madden fans were still playing games with the directional pad when most 2k fans quickly jumped on the analog sticks since they were using it regularly with the DC. The big jump between 2k4 and 2k5 was that they made a lot of things more "Madden friendly". The extension of the new play calling screens, added momentum, smaller models, etc. In reality 2k5 is the closest thing we probably will ever see to a combination of Madden and 2k5. This game has been much better than Madden in many aspects since 2k1. There are and have been legit issues with the game just like with Madden, but if you're looking at them as a Madden player they appear MUCH bigger, too much to try to overcome, too many new things to learn, etc. And these are the people that actually PLAYED the game a few times.

You're drastically underestimating the great number of people that play madden and have never touched the 2k series, and we can keep this to before 2k5 if you like. Huge numbers of people didn't even know ESPN Football was the 2k series. Huge numbers of people went from the playstation right to the playstation 2 and will stick with that to the playstation 3 have never even looked at the 2k series. The price drop was to get these people to "look" at the product and then in the future they'd be more capable of making an educated choice but of course now there is no choice. Anyway, the bottom line is whatever reason got you to really give the game a try is legit and I'm sure due to an improvement that made the difference for you, but whatever it was that bugged you about it before blinded you to the better blocking and pocket forming, better graphics, more variety in animation, more authentic playbooks, etc. I'm not trying to hate on Madden b/c it has a lot of things better than the 2k series but it's not like all of the things that the 2k series does better just appeared in the 2k5 version of the game.

[spankdatazz22]

Good argument; your points are well made and taken. 2k DID "Madden-ize" itself some to be more accessible, and I guess you're right about 2K5 possibly being about as close as we'll get to a hybrid between the two. Never really thought about it like that.

I do feel the two things that kept Madden players away from 2K in droves were the directional control and the player movement though. It's the reason someone coined the term "herky-jerky" when describing 2K games on the whole - and I'd have to agree with that. Perhaps it's more transitional animations depicting directional changes, but whatever it is it does make 2K feel more stiff. When Madden fans talk about that "feel" that they like with Madden, they're talking about the way the game controls.

I don't mean to bash Madden so much because it does have it's good points. One being that you can use a defender's momentum against him when running, whereas 2K is more north and south. But outside of player control, and maybe franchise, 2K really charged ahead in all other facets of football gaming IMO. It's ashame that we'll never know what VC might've been able to do with 2-3 years on the XBox w/the NFL license, not just the one they had. But (and getting back on topic) that's the reason people feel a generic game could succeed. Because it can offer gameplay/features that won't be in Madden.

[wilk]

Back to the subject at hand.

I remember when Microsoft announced it was no longer making sports games. They let everyone know a long time in advance.

I do not remember if Sega did the same thing with College Football. Does any one remember how they handled that anouncement?

I still believe that no news is good news, and I will keep hoping until someone "official" makes the anouncement.

[blackceasar]

Quote: Originally Posted by coogrfan

Do you really believe that? You honestly think that if both games were released this year, both at the same $50.00 price, that 2k's sales would "b!tch slap" Madden's? Tell me, what color is the sky on your world?

I dont think 2k's sales would "b!tch slap" Maddens. Take it from someone who has been working in the advertising and marketing industry for a while now as a creataive director. It's all about a magic word called "BRANDING"


Now when I talk about branding I dont just mean a logo. Your logo is part of it but branding is also a feeling. EA has the better marketing team, coupled with the fact that thier brand has been out there for a loooong time. So you have brand loyalty just from the fact its been so big for so long and 2 its because EA's brand (not game) but brand itself speaks loud and clear and pulls the consumer in.

Now branding is NOT effective when you are pitching a produçt to people like us because we dig deeper than the surface to get the best product. Branding is not as affective on us as it is to the general casual consumer/gamer. On top of that EA has the money to do alot of what we in the industry call "co-branding". You can see EA's stuff parntered up wtih other big names in products that also target the male 16-34 year old age range. Soft drinks, magazines (Maxim, SI, etc), and the list goes on. If you love you some Mountain Dew for whatever reason and you see some promo on thier bottle wtih EA sports and Madden thats just more of EA being in your face and now its affiliated with your favorite soft drink. No thå† alone isnt gonna make you want Madden, but maybe where EA had no "street cred" or whatever to make you think about them, the fact your favorite soft drink is saying "hey, EA is great"..and you think your fav soft drink is great so now some consumers will start to slowy start thinking EA is great too. Its like being cool by association. I might nø† be cool.. but if you see me rolling around town wtih Puff Daddy and Jay-Z for the next 6 months, im automatically cool wether you really know who the heck I am or not. EA has TONS of money to do this kind of marketing.

Madden is to Football video games as what Jiff is to Peanut Butter, what Dell is to home computers now. Is Jiff really the best peanut butter? Maybe not. is Dell the best home computer you can buy? Maybe not but thier brands are out there so much for so long its reckognizable.

Sure VC has commericals and magazine ad's to push thier own product (2k sports) but it still is small potatoes compared to what EA does and can and will do to get as much exposure to thier product to as many people as possible. EA has the pulse of the general consumer and casual gamer. It doesnt make Madden the best football game or even a GOOD football game but it will never get bitchslapped by Take Two's sports titles because EA has been absorbed into peoples brains for sooooo long. This is also why EA can afford to be lazy when it comes to innovating thier game. Wheras a company like Take Two has really nothing to sell thier product and to validate them in the idustry outside of MAKING A DARN GOOD FOOTBALL GAME.

Boys and girls, marketing is POWERFUL. I have sat in what we call "focus groups" and I have conducted them myself inside many marketing firms. We have actually paid big money to bring psychologists in to help us understand what makes people tick. Why this product makes the consumer want it over its competitor. This is why you have endorsemnt deals. Lebron James can ink a 100 million dollar deal with Nike to sell shøes not because his shoe might be the best or not. Thats irrelevant. Its becuse people know Lebron, hes on fire, hes the number 1 attraction in the NBA. So Lebron holding up a certain shoe automatically in alot of consumers head validates that shoe as being good or great or the best. Lebron can get 100 million to wear a certain shoe Nike makes because Nike knows that the average consmer (which is 80% of consumers) doesnt look that hard into the product. lebron wears it, so its good, give me a pair please. If marketing didnt work (which is nothing more than ideas that get produced to get your mind thinking about buying THAT particular product) and if it didnt work this well and effectively...companies wouldnt give one man 100 million to wear his shoe. Where I work now, we just finished a campaign for a world wide known soft drink and they sunk 18 mllion dollars into our marketing ideas. Thats a nice chunk of money, they wont spend that kind øf money if it hasnt been proven that the marketing isng gonna produce a huge return for them.

So at least right now it doesnt matter how much better 2k is over EA's sports games. Madden would have to flat out SUCK bigtime for 10 years in a row just to start making a change in whos got the leverage. cuz thier marketing is THAT powerful.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

Good argument; your points are well made and taken. 2k DID "Madden-ize" itself some to be more accessible, and I guess you're right about 2K5 possibly being about as close as we'll get to a hybrid between the two. Never really thought about it like that. I do feel the two things that kept Madden players away from 2K in droves were the directional control and the player movement though. It's the reason someone coined the term "herky-jerky" when describing 2K games on the whole - and I'd have to agree with that. Perhaps it's more transitional animations depicting directional changes, but whatever it is it does make 2K feel more stiff. When Madden fans talk about that "feel" that they like with Madden, they're talking about the way the game controls. I don't mean to bash Madden so much because it does have it's good points. One being that you can use a defender's momentum against him when running, whereas 2K is more north and south. But outside of player control, and maybe franchise, 2K really charged ahead in all other facets of football gaming IMO. It's ashame that we'll never know what VC might've been able to do with 2-3 years on the XBox w/the NFL license, not just the one they had. But (and getting back on topic) that's the reason people feel a generic game could succeed. Because it can offer gameplay/features that won't be in Madden.

I agree that's why madden fans couldn't get into the game. It stopped them from looking at the other good things that already existed. I think 2k5 made it possible for them to look past it a bit more and see things that the series has been doing well for some time now. Considering that, the size of the jump wasn't as big as it may have seemed. Future jumps would seem much smaller b/c the changes will be the same but to madden fans they won't. Personally I've thought every version of the 2k series was better than it's Madden counterpart so I'm disappointed that it's been stalled, but that's me. I don't think the masses would be jumping ship at an increased rate. They could've continued to slowly win over more and more people but Madden would've been fine either way.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by coogrfan

Do you really believe that? You honestly think that if both games were released this year, both at the same $50.00 price, that 2k's sales would "b!tch slap" Madden's? Tell me, what color is the sky on your world?

Btw, meant to say - I didn't mean that 2K would slap the taste out of Madden's mouth in terms of sales - that'll likely never happen. Just was speaking hypothetically in terms of how both games would've been received from a gameplay quality standpoint. Just IMO.

[Kenedajade]

Did someone say..... NCAA College Football 2K6? Wouldn't that be a nice kick to the balls of EA who hog both football game markets? With the engine they have now, can you imagine how beautiful that game would be? Oh Sega of Sega, why haven't you converted NFL 2k5 into NCAA College Football 2k6? We would all get it, just to spite EA. We are all looking for an excuse to give them the finger. Here's to dreams guys. What could have been done with the 2K engine on Next Gen. Let's hope the loss of football sales doesn't cause the 2K serries to belly up. Dare we say goddbye to NBA 2k. Then we can all play that tired engine EA calls NBA Live.

my 2 cents
Ken

[jrivera34]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kenedajade

Oh Sega of Sega, why haven't you converted NFL 2k5 into NCAA College Football 2k6?

Because EA bought the rights to NCAA football as well.