Keep 2K football hope alive

[totalownership]

Quote: Originally Posted by blackceasar

Blitz, while a football game as well, does well for the kind of game it is because its found its own identity. The game isnt bought for NFL authenticity, its bought for the over the top WWE/ECW style of football game. Its meant to be outrageous and exagerrated. What most people are wanting 2k to do is produce a football game that plays like a regular football game without any NFL authenticity to it. So where is the nitch there for that game? Dont tell me thier selling point will be that its totally customizable because that is something that people like US would die for, the average consumer doesnt want a game that plays like a real normal game of football that doesnt have the NFL behind it. Why would the average NFL hungry consumer want a game that plays like Madden for the most part without all the NFL stuff that madden has? Customizablitiy is not on the list of what the casual gamer looks for in a football game.

Well marketing is one thing, demand is another. Right now the 360 is in demand of games, period. The selection is still quite low and on the 360 there is room enough for more sports. That's fact. Right now the mindset of people who own the 360 isn't so much about "which" as it's about "how many". A generic game will sell well on the 360. If it plays well enough that could carry over to the last gen systems also as we all know, casual gamer aside it's all about word of mouth when it comes to these games.

If the "word" is that 2K has a knockout stellar product then it will sell and sell well. Don't get me wrong, marketing counts for alot but it's not the only thing. The word on the street carries more than anything else. Marketing gets you in the door and gets you known. But the word is what's king. Now sometimes the word follows the hype of marketing, don't get me wrong but sometimes it doesn't.

Right now is the only window I see for 2K to come out with their game. They come out now and strong and they can get a foothold in the industry but it will all have to start with the 360, IMO.

EDIT: Also having no license gives 2K freedom to do more than before. Not having the NFL decide what you can and cannot do in a game is a relief for consumers looking for a bit more grit in their games.

[elprez98]

Quote: Originally Posted by blackceasar

Blitz, while a football game as well, does well for the kind of game it is because its found its own identity. The game isnt bought for NFL authenticity, its bought for the over the top WWE/ECW style of football game. Its meant to be outrageous and exagerrated. What most people are wanting 2k to do is produce a football game that plays like a regular football game without any NFL authenticity to it. So where is the nitch there for that game? Dont tell me thier selling point will be that its totally customizable because that is something that people like US would die for, the average consumer doesnt want a game that plays like a real normal game of football that doesnt have the NFL behind it. Why would the average NFL hungry consumer want a game that plays like Madden for the most part without all the NFL stuff that madden has? Customizablitiy is not on the list of what the casual gamer looks for in a football game.

I personally don't believe the success of the game hinges on customizibility. Although this feature would only add to their success.

The nitch is the same set of gamers that they used to gain market share with 2k5. Mark my words, somebody will (even if it isn't 2k) lcontinue to use a lower price point and continue to market their undeniable advantage in graphics using the next generation console as a bridge to former 2k fans and the so-called "casual gamer" that 2k obviously reached in the 2k5 product(look at sales #'s).

I think a lot of us "older" gamers are not understanding(not a jab at you black, just rebuttaling) the way the world is changing. Broadband access is in like 1/3rd of american homes, and as wireless becomes the standard(hell, Kristals has wireless here in ATL), the current/next generation gamer doesn't have any limitations for "customizability."

EA is trying to force the market to work under their set of parameters for profit, which may work for those in the business of natural resources (even they have their limits), but technological resources are definitely a completely different animal. Again, I understand that this is all speculation, but my thoughts on the matter are simple. 2k is not that far removed from the position they were in before the licensing deal: a distant 2nd in sales, and solvency in question, but the main diffenences now are that they have a solid foot in the door with basketball gaming, exclusive licensing with MLB and the publicity of NFL exclusive licensing can easlily be spun for their support.

The bottom line is that casual gamers are still customers. Nobody believed a car company like Kia would remain afloat but through decent marketing, superior reliability, and lower price points, people will buy a Kia based on those factors, regardless of it not being GM or Toyota. The fact remains that the sale of a superior product at a lower price point transcends across any market, that is the mantra of any up-and-coming business trying to compete with corporate giants.

Again, I know its all wishful thinking on my part, but I really believe that even if 2k doesn't choose to enter the fray, somebody will because the market is there.

[thejackal25]

How can people say that it's only the "OS people" that want this game to come out. When IGN conducted their poll on sports games, 2k5 beat out Madden 06...and I tend to think more that just the "OS people" go to IGN's site. Yes, the NFL license is important, but I recall Madden 64 doing pretty well even when another N64 game had the NFL license to itself. I believe total customization would be a big seller. What if you had a game that could be customized to the point that you could turn the game into and NFL game, an NCAA game, a CFL game, an AFL game, a USFL game, an XFL game, or a game in which you could have Shane Falco (Replacements) going head to head with Steamin Willie Beamin (Any Given Sunday). If 2ksports put out a game w/ the same customizability as Maximum-Football for the PC, then I think there's a niche for them. And imagine the integration they could do if they could squeeze all the customizability onto a disc. Imagine playing a single game for college and pro football...being able to have accurate draft classes coming from the same game...having a career mode that leads you from being a college walk-on through your college career, through draft day and into your pro career. The ability to get several different games out of 60 bucks than getting one NFL game markets itself. Honestly, if someone could get a college, pro, arena game for 60 bucks or get all three for 180 bucks, u have to believe that a good deal of people would go for it...or at least that's my opinion.

[elprez98]

Quote: Originally Posted by thejackal25

How can people say that it's only the "OS people" that want this game to come out. When IGN conducted their poll on sports games, 2k5 beat out Madden 06...and I tend to think more that just the "OS people" go to IGN's site. Yes, the NFL license is important, but I recall Madden 64 doing pretty well even when another N64 game had the NFL license to itself. I believe total customization would be a big seller. What if you had a game that could be customized to the point that you could turn the game into and NFL game, an NCAA game, a CFL game, an AFL game, a USFL game, an XFL game, or a game in which you could have Shane Falco (Replacements) going head to head with Steamin Willie Beamin (Any Given Sunday). If 2ksports put out a game w/ the same customizability as Maximum-Football for the PC, then I think there's a niche for them. And imagine the integration they could do if they could squeeze all the customizability onto a disc. Imagine playing a single game for college and pro football...being able to have accurate draft classes coming from the same game...having a career mode that leads you from being a college walk-on through your college career, through draft day and into your pro career. The ability to get several different games out of 60 bucks than getting one NFL game markets itself. Honestly, if someone could get a college, pro, arena game for 60 bucks or get all three for 180 bucks, u have to believe that a good deal of people would go for it...or at least that's my opinion.

Well the problem with that is...most people are lazy. They don't want to go through the "hassle" of making the game, NFL, NCAA...or whatever. Look on just the OS boards, even people on here don't do their own rosters and/or sliders. They wait for someone else, say thanks(sometimes) and go about their business. Someone who doesn't even lurk forums wouldn't go through the time it takes to do that. The information would have to be easily accessible(i.e. Xbox Marketplace) for the normal guy(not to say ya'll aren't normal...lol)

[thejackal25]

Quote: Originally Posted by elprez98

Well the problem with that is...most people are lazy. They don't want to go through the "hassle" of making the game, NFL, NCAA...or whatever. Look on just the OS boards, even people on here don't do their own rosters and/or sliders. They wait for someone else, say thanks(sometimes) and go about their business. Someone who doesn't even lurk forums wouldn't go through the time it takes to do that. The information would have to be easily accessible(i.e. Xbox Marketplace) for the normal guy(not to say ya'll aren't normal...lol)

But someone would make the rosters for every league, so most people won't have to worry about the hassle. All it takes is one ambitious individual and everyone would be set. I think you hit it right on the head...let us all share all of our content on Xbox Marketplace and this game would be good to go. Or maybe 2ksports would create a site where gamers could upload and download rosters, teams, and gamesaves. The "hassle" of turning one's copy of 2k7 Football into NFL 2K7, NCAA 2K7, or anything would not be too tough if 2ksports made roster sharing easy enough.

[thesurfshop19]

Quote: Originally Posted by blackceasar

I hate to sound pessimistic but Ive been working in Marketing for a little over 10 years now, I think I know what Im talking about. I sit in meetings almost daily with big brands on how we can position thier products, who thier target audiecnes are, will people even buy this new thing they are thinking about doing, etc.

Great thoughts. I've also worked in marketing with huge brands for several years, and I think we're saying a lot of the same things in different ways.

(Pretty much everything you quoted of mine was taken out of context. My point was that as the market is currently, it makes *no sense* for 2K to come out with a football game later this fall than EA's offerings. 2K may have had a window of opportunity if they'd been aggressive and creative right out of the gate, but now they'd have to have the greatest ideas ever in order to compete.)

I think at the end of the day, a person's position on 2K football comes down to whether you believe a few things ....

1. Will consumers sacrifice a license for better and new gameplay?
We do know that in Europe with Pro Evo Football vs. FIFA, that the better product will be competitive in the marketplace. We know that the vast majority of casual gamers will play NCAA football with completely generic players. Does a license carry a certain weight with it that guarantees a huge advantage in the marketplace? No question. Is it the kiss of death for a brand that competes directly with it? Not necessarily either way.

2. Who would 2K football be targeting?
Where is the white space in the marketplace? Blitz is doing their own thing while Madden's basically doing the same thing they've done for 15+ years. What will 2K bring to the table that is new and different? I'm a firm believer that all-out customization is absolutely not enough to differentiate. All-out customization just screams to consumers, "look at what we don't have that the competitor does ... but if you spend hours our game will almost replicate the competition".

No, 2K's white space could be what they already do well. Presentation, emotion, the feeling of being right there in the game. When I played NFL 2K5, as weird as it sounds, the game felt alive. The world itself was vibrant and alive, from the SportsCenter reports to the cut scenes during gameplay. This is a real advantage that's easily translatable into mass advertising, as well.

3. What is 2K's ideal window of opportunity?
Well, this probably comes down to opinion more than anything, but it's probably where we agree the most. I personally feel, and communicated this very clearly in previous posts, that 2K's best window is probably gone.

I strongly feel that 2K's best chance for long-run survival was to come right out with a generic product in time for last year's football season. Generic brands need to build awareness, and that was perhaps the best time to strike with a familiar title (2K) that had sold almost as well as Madden and been critically acclaimed. 2K also had a large degree of sympathy, even among the general non-OS reading population, as it looked like EA was simply buying the marketplace.

Now? It'll be 2 straight football seasons without a 2K game, and Madden will likely have a much more respectable next-gen product by the time Madden 08 comes out. By waiting 2 years, the incentive for consumers to buy has to be that much better -- if they'd come out with Pro Football 2K6 last fall incremental improvements at $20 could still have sold copies. Now? We'd better see a revolution.

So at the end of the day, I think 2K football is gone for good. Perhaps even the most optimistic answers to those above questions still wouldn't produce a viable market for 2K football, though that comes down to whether we feel that in the *long run*, and this means at least 5 years of annual updates, a generic football game could sell. It's worked in soccer in Europe because the gameplay has been superior and the brand is familiar and continually updated. And I think that was 2K's only shot at staying in the game.

[blackceasar]

Quote: Originally Posted by totalownership

Well marketing is one thing, demand is another. Right now the 360 is in demand of games, period. The selection is still quite low and on the 360 there is room enough for more sports. That's fact. Right now the mindset of people who own the 360 isn't so much about "which" as it's about "how many". A generic game will sell well on the 360. If it plays well enough that could carry over to the last gen systems also as we all know, casual gamer aside it's all about word of mouth when it comes to these games. If the "word" is that 2K has a knockout stellar product then it will sell and sell well. Don't get me wrong, marketing counts for alot but it's not the only thing. The word on the street carries more than anything else. Marketing gets you in the door and gets you known. But the word is what's king. Now sometimes the word follows the hype of marketing, don't get me wrong but sometimes it doesn't. Right now is the only window I see for 2K to come out with their game. They come out now and strong and they can get a foothold in the industry but it will all have to start with the 360, IMO. EDIT: Also having no license gives 2K freedom to do more than before. Not having the NFL decide what you can and cannot do in a game is a relief for consumers looking for a bit more grit in their games.

Dude the 360 not having "enough games" is by no means a justification that 2k is looking at for thinking about coming out with another football game. Making a non-nfl football game for all platforms is a risk for a company in itself. Now youre going to put out a non-nfl football game, okay well thats gonna limit your sales right there..but then youre gonna do it only on the 360? Shave off another chunk of the consumer base even more. People forget that just because we want it here, and we talk about it, and some of us let the dream and the hype blind our business thinking dont be fooled. 2k sports is a company just like EA or any other company. They are in the business to make money FIRST, please us second. PERIOD. If the game isnt going to hit the numbers they are projecting then us and our "2k please give us a football game" cries will fall on deaf ears. Right now for all you know there are all kinds of marketing people doing segmentation, focus groups, research etc to see if its even in 2k Sports BEST FINANCIAL INTEREST to make another football game..and I promise you..if they come back and find out that its NOT, they youre not going to see a game from them. PERIOD. If I had a company making games, and someone said "hey i see kids on message boards asking for My Little Pony for the 360! lets make it!" I will fire the fool for even giving me the idea. Im going to look at the data, data comes back and tells me that 75% of video game players are males between the ages of 12-35. Why am I gonna sink x amount of money into My Little Pony 360 when the data tells me less than 1% of the 75% of the gamers would buy it? Its not a smart financial move on my part.

The problem is I think some people here are thinking with thier hearts and not witih thier heads. You can sit here all day long and tell me "well if they made it like this it would be successful, bla bla bla". The fact is that its 2 years probably going on 3 that we wont see a football game from 2k sports. There is a good reason for that. You might not know what it is but Im sure 2k sports does. As far as the "well they are spending 2-3 years to make it! yeah thats it!" keep dreaming. Until the report comes back with financial estimations that are enough to 2k's likings you arent getting a 2k sports football title.

I remember the first year there was no 2k sports game. People said they knew in thier hearts 2k was doing something "big" and we would see them go back head to head with EA this past year. I told them they were crazy for thinking it...and guess what? I went straight jacket shopping for them. call me negataive all you want..IM thinking like a business man when I think about 2k and thier "phantom football game"..im not thinking like a dreamy eyed fan of 2k (which i miss dearly) trying to convince myself that something is coming and its coming soon.

[scourge]

Seriously, let it go. I miss it too and I still get mad now and then, but let it go. Its over.