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Old 07-22-2003, 02:16 PM   #33
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

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Graphik said:
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MuffinMcFluffin said:
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MedalofJack said:
People always bitch about how the gameplay in Madden stays the same, hell gameplay in the actual NFL stays the same.




On the ESPN show Around the Horn, Max would've given you 100 points for saying that.




Lol, thats the best qoute I've ever heard on these boards. Matter of fact, I think I'll make it part of my sig.




LOL. Actually, I think Max would have subtracted 1,000 points since it was so incorrect. I would'nt use that as a signature, lol.

The NFL is always changing. Look at the difference in each era in just the short term history, player speeds, sizes and strength are even greater than they were in the 90's!

Look at the complexity of NFL playbooks today compared to even in the 1980's. They are even more complex than they were in the 90's as well. More schemes and formations, look at the way in which the no-huddle offense has died out.

It did'nt die out because it was'nt a good plan, it's just that Defenses are too fast for that scheme to work anymore, and when the Bengals were running it now and then in the 80's and then when the Bills "perfected" it in the 90's, there were coordinators up until 1995 that actually believed that the No-Huddle offense run by a decent group of players was nearly impossible to stop, since the two teams that ran it exclusively at one time all had great success with it going all the way to the Super Bowl (Cincinnati and Buffalo, but both lost MANY times of course).

Even compared to other era's there are coaches for EVERY single position now.

The NFL may not necessarily change EVERY single season, but over at least a 5-10 year span it does change in a significant manner.

Madden is not changing with the times. Please, people, don't give us this bull about how Madden's gameplay is so perfect that they don't need to change. It's a load of bull. I've been playing Madden since it was on Apple computer. I was the biggest fan there probably was, but I got sick of the fact that EA was not addressing the major problems with the game, and it's doubtful that this years game will be any different, and from watching the Madden video's, it looks like it's gonna suck to be a Madden fan this year. It looks like you're basically getting the same game as last year with a few new BS features.
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:17 PM   #34
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

i hate doing this but mods can you please tighten up? Finally there are seperate Madden and 2k4 forums and we still have to deal with this BS?

Every thread is ruined... can't even judge by titles anymore. This is b/c of both 2k4 and madden fans, please try to keep the threads on topic. Mods, please shut down these threads that turn into the same BS and get rid of the common strands in these threads.
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:23 PM   #35
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

I think he meant football in general. And in that case its still the same ol 11 v. 11 smashmouth sport its always been.

But I dont understand how Madden is'nt changing with the times. I mean how does it need to change? I dont get that. In other words, what has NFL 2k3/ESPN done to change with the times? Explain.
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:37 PM   #36
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

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Graphik said:
I think he meant football in general. And in that case its still the same ol 11 v. 11 smashmouth sport its always been.

But I dont understand how Madden is'nt changing with the times. I mean how does it need to change? I dont get that. In other words, what has NFL 2k3/ESPN done to change with the times? Explain.




Maddens:

*Graphics are stuck in the last millenium. It's 2003 and the player models proportions still resemble what was done on the PS1. That's pathetic and inexcusable. Upgrade.

*Passing system is still stuck in the 16-Bit era. Madden players say it's fine and it is a challenge, well Madden players maybe you just suck because I have picked this game up after not playing it for very long periods of time, turning it up to it's highest level and still beating the CPU like there is no tomorrow. I also have no trouble completing every pass under the sun in Madden no matter what type of coverage I'm facing. Any game that has Jon Kitna play like Johnny Unitas is not even close to realistic.

*Tackling blows swinging testes. I've never seen so many stupid tackles in my life. I've yet to see one that resembled realism. This was acceptable in the 16-bit era, and even still in the 32-Bit era, but now it's just a damn shame. EA should be ashamed.

*Commentary is light years behind the 2K series, and I would even take Fever's commentary which blows as well over Madden's. It's almost as if they are working with the same amount of memory that was in the PS1. Why does'nt someone tell EA that they can EXPAND it because the systems today can handle a lot more?

*Presentation is a step backwards from MADDEN '96 (or was it '97, damn I can't remember). That year Madden had JB in the Fox Studio and John and Pat talking about the games. It was even specific to what time of year and the situation you were in like Playoffs and Super Bowl. It was WAY ahead of it's time. But you know what's funny about that? Visual Concepts produced the Madden game that year!!! It's no coincidence that once VC left, their innovative idea went with them! What does that tell us about EA's lack of intent to bring the consumer the best possible experience?

EA, it's 2003. Wake up.
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:08 PM   #37
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

Only a few of your points mentioned gameplay which is what I may not have a problem with.
But to counter your points I'll just use qoutes.

Quote:

Graphics are stuck in the last millenium. It's 2003 and the player models proportions still resemble what was done on the PS1. That's pathetic and inexcusable. Upgrade.




I still dont see why ppl complaine about the player models. I like them. yes, they may have big *** heads but that totally minor. I can understand why a 2K3 player might not like them because they are spoiled on 2K3s player models, thats understandable. But I see nothing wrong with the player models in terms of size of players, wieght of players and musclular tone. Does'nt bother me a bit.


Quote:

Passing system is still stuck in the 16-Bit era. Madden players say it's fine and it is a challenge, well Madden players maybe you just suck because I have picked this game up after not playing it for very long periods of time, turning it up to it's highest level and still beating the CPU like there is no tomorrow. I also have no trouble completing every pass under the sun in Madden no matter what type of coverage I'm facing. Any game that has Jon Kitna play like Johnny Unitas is not even close to realistic.





Now I dont know what team you play with but you should try using Jim Miller and the bears cause my passing blows ****. I find the passing game quite realistic compared to thos floaty passes in 2K3 which gave the DB just enough time to rock the WR and knock the ball out his hands....frenquently. And the physics of the ball in 2K3 sucked also. Add that to a floaty ball then you've got a passing game thats mediorcore at best. both games had DB AI problems but I sure in hell cant whip on the cpu like you claim you can. You know something I dont know.

Quote:

Tackling blows swinging testes. I've never seen so many stupid tackles in my life. I've yet to see one that resembled realism. This was acceptable in the 16-bit era, and even still in the 32-Bit era, but now it's just a damn shame. EA should be ashamed.





Tackling is'nt as bad as some ppl say. It may have some cheap tackling animations but it still has a decent amount of realistic animations. This once again goes to a player spoiled with 2K3s tackling animations. BUT, in 2K3 a defender can dive at a player from 5 yards away and make a tackle. It seems like they just skip animations and go right into the tackling animation. Or the super dive just works to good.


Quote:

Commentary is light years behind the 2K series, and I would even take Fever's commentary which blows as well over Madden's. It's almost as if they are working with the same amount of memory that was in the PS1. Why does'nt someone tell EA that they can EXPAND it because the systems today can handle a lot more?




No comment on this, I'd be the first to agree that the commentatary on Madden is the most sleep inducing piece of trash I've ever witnessed.


Quote:

Presentation is a step backwards from MADDEN '96 (or was it '97, damn I can't remember). That year Madden had JB in the Fox Studio and John and Pat talking about the games. It was even specific to what time of year and the situation you were in like Playoffs and Super Bowl. It was WAY ahead of it's time. But you know what's funny about that? Visual Concepts produced the Madden game that year!!! It's no coincidence that once VC left, their innovative idea went with them! What does that tell us about EA's lack of intent to bring the consumer the best possible experience?





I dont see nothing wrong with the presentation niether. Both games keep you up to date with player stats throughout the game but I do agree that 2K3 does it better. But I dont like 2K3s interface. Madden beats them in that department IMO.



All in all, you have'nt came up with a legit reason why 2K3 is up with the times as far as football gameplay is concerned and why Madden is behind. Which is the initial question I rasied. Maybe you misinterpreted it but that was the real question.

But dont get me wrong, both games do a good job on the main department that thier sopposed to do good in, and thats play a game of football. Whether Madden has a few hundred less tackling animations, or 2K3 has no running momentum, they both play one good game of football on the field.
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:20 PM   #38
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

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SDathlete said:
The running in ESPN reminds me of old 989 Gameday animations for the PS1,they really suck. Other than that this game is gonnna rock. I guess I'll have to play in FP mode just so I don't have to look at LT run like Frankenstein.




That is the perfect analogy...the players all mover like Frankenstein.
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:39 PM   #39
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

Quote:

Graphik said:
Only a few of your points mentioned gameplay which is what I may not have a problem with.
But to counter your points I'll just use qoutes.

Quote:

Graphics are stuck in the last millenium. It's 2003 and the player models proportions still resemble what was done on the PS1. That's pathetic and inexcusable. Upgrade.




I still dont see why ppl complaine about the player models. I like them. yes, they may have big *** heads but that totally minor. I can understand why a 2K3 player might not like them because they are spoiled on 2K3s player models, thats understandable. But I see nothing wrong with the player models in terms of size of players, wieght of players and musclular tone. Does'nt bother me a bit.


Quote:

Passing system is still stuck in the 16-Bit era. Madden players say it's fine and it is a challenge, well Madden players maybe you just suck because I have picked this game up after not playing it for very long periods of time, turning it up to it's highest level and still beating the CPU like there is no tomorrow. I also have no trouble completing every pass under the sun in Madden no matter what type of coverage I'm facing. Any game that has Jon Kitna play like Johnny Unitas is not even close to realistic.





Now I dont know what team you play with but you should try using Jim Miller and the bears cause my passing blows ****. I find the passing game quite realistic compared to thos floaty passes in 2K3 which gave the DB just enough time to rock the WR and knock the ball out his hands....frenquently. And the physics of the ball in 2K3 sucked also. Add that to a floaty ball then you've got a passing game thats mediorcore at best. both games had DB AI problems but I sure in hell cant whip on the cpu like you claim you can. You know something I dont know.

Quote:

Tackling blows swinging testes. I've never seen so many stupid tackles in my life. I've yet to see one that resembled realism. This was acceptable in the 16-bit era, and even still in the 32-Bit era, but now it's just a damn shame. EA should be ashamed.





Tackling is'nt as bad as some ppl say. It may have some cheap tackling animations but it still has a decent amount of realistic animations. This once again goes to a player spoiled with 2K3s tackling animations. BUT, in 2K3 a defender can dive at a player from 5 yards away and make a tackle. It seems like they just skip animations and go right into the tackling animation. Or the super dive just works to good.


Quote:

Commentary is light years behind the 2K series, and I would even take Fever's commentary which blows as well over Madden's. It's almost as if they are working with the same amount of memory that was in the PS1. Why does'nt someone tell EA that they can EXPAND it because the systems today can handle a lot more?




No comment on this, I'd be the first to agree that the commentatary on Madden is the most sleep inducing piece of trash I've ever witnessed.


Quote:

Presentation is a step backwards from MADDEN '96 (or was it '97, damn I can't remember). That year Madden had JB in the Fox Studio and John and Pat talking about the games. It was even specific to what time of year and the situation you were in like Playoffs and Super Bowl. It was WAY ahead of it's time. But you know what's funny about that? Visual Concepts produced the Madden game that year!!! It's no coincidence that once VC left, their innovative idea went with them! What does that tell us about EA's lack of intent to bring the consumer the best possible experience?





I dont see nothing wrong with the presentation niether. Both games keep you up to date with player stats throughout the game but I do agree that 2K3 does it better. But I dont like 2K3s interface. Madden beats them in that department IMO.



All in all, you have'nt came up with a legit reason why 2K3 is up with the times as far as football gameplay is concerned and why Madden is behind. Which is the initial question I rasied. Maybe you misinterpreted it but that was the real question.

But dont get me wrong, both games do a good job on the main department that thier sopposed to do good in, and thats play a game of football. Whether Madden has a few hundred less tackling animations, or 2K3 has no running momentum, they both play one good game of football on the field.




But while the 2k series has had it's problems, they aknowledge them and they change them. The madden producers don't think that anything is wrong with thier game because ea fans are used to the same garbage and until they actually see a 2k game in person they think that everything in madden is pretty and that they don't need to change anything. In nfl2k4 the momentum has been changed while madden still has their overly exagerrated momentum. Who slides when they're running and turning? I never knew that people could slide on grass I'm going to have to try that one day. The bottom line is that madden never changes their crappy product and pretty soon the people are going to get tired of this and they will turn to other games. By the way, I never knew that vc produced a madden game. That's interesting.
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:49 PM   #40
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

"I still dont see why ppl complaine about the player models. I like them. yes, they may have big *** heads but that totally minor. I can understand why a 2K3 player might not like them because they are spoiled on 2K3s player models, thats understandable. But I see nothing wrong with the player models in terms of size of players, wieght of players and musclular tone. Does'nt bother me a bit."

My problem with the models is mostly in proportion. It's just not right and it can be easily fixed. As for preference, it's not my bag but I don't think it's bad if someone prefers it. I just hope they realize that the players are completely out of proportion for no good reason.

"Now I dont know what team you play with but you should try using Jim Miller and the bears cause my passing blows ****. I find the passing game quite realistic compared to thos floaty passes in 2K3 which gave the DB just enough time to rock the WR and knock the ball out his hands....frenquently. And the physics of the ball in 2K3 sucked also. Add that to a floaty ball then you've got a passing game thats mediorcore at best. both games had DB AI problems but I sure in hell cant whip on the cpu like you claim you can. You know something I dont know."

I've found those problems to be fixed if you increase the QB attributes in 2K3. Also, if you turn the catching slider all the way to the left, the cathcing problem is fixed. As long as you bring your A-Game on defense the CPU passing stats will not get out of control either. But yeah, I agree that those problems did exist in 2K3.

"Tackling is'nt as bad as some ppl say. It may have some cheap tackling animations but it still has a decent amount of realistic animations. This once again goes to a player spoiled with 2K3s tackling animations. BUT, in 2K3 a defender can dive at a player from 5 yards away and make a tackle. It seems like they just skip animations and go right into the tackling animation. Or the super dive just works to good."

Hahahaha. I knew you were going to bring up the 5-yard tackle thing, lol! I was going to put that in my post but I thought twice about it. Yeah, that was bad but there were ways to edit players to fix that too. I think the problem with 2K3 was that while you could fix the problems yourself, it's one of those things were we feel that the gamer should'nt have to be burdened with that responsibility. It should have been programmed right to begin with.

"No comment on this, I'd be the first to agree that the commentatary on Madden is the most sleep inducing piece of trash I've ever witnessed."

The ONLY thing I liked about Madden's commentary better than 2k's is that it had a more serious tone. While Madden was being his usual wacky self, Michaels was being serious and reserved like in real life. The commentary just needs to be expanded and have Madden and Michaels in the booth together WAY more. WAY more.

"I dont see nothing wrong with the presentation niether. Both games keep you up to date with player stats throughout the game but I do agree that 2K3 does it better. But I dont like 2K3s interface. Madden beats them in that department IMO."

I think this community has created two separate definitions of what presentation is, or maybe everybody else has one definition and I have my own making me the odd man out, LOL.

Anyway, I define presentation by Pre, Mid and Post game Wrap-ups, Commentary, Cut Scenes, etc. everything that presents the game to the player. In this area, Madden falls very short. With what ESPN has this year, there is no way that EA can compete. It is ESPN after all, the world-wide leader in Sports. Who could compete?

"All in all, you have'nt came up with a legit reason why 2K3 is up with the times as far as football gameplay is concerned and why Madden is behind. Which is the initial question I rasied. Maybe you misinterpreted it but that was the real question."

No, I interpreted correctly. I believe I did indeed address your question, you just disagreed, which you are entitled to do.
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