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Old 07-23-2003, 01:03 PM   #57
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

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My general problem with madden gameplay is that it doesn't clearly seperate the football experience from the videogame experience. As a novice you can somewhat get the feel of playing football, calling the right play at the right time however I don't even know if this is true on defense. It's more of a feel of learn plays, patterns and techniques to succeed at the game rather than use football knowledge to pick plays and execute proper technique to succeed.





I dont know about that one. It took me close to 5 or 6 games of Madden to learn my teams playbook in and out and I use real football stratergy on the playing field. I would say 90% of my passing plays are between 5-15 yards. I dont throw the long ball unless its needed. As a novice, I would'nt get anywhere on Offense. The cpu would pick my offense apart. Thats why I cant see how some ppl say that they can constantly whip the cpu on the hardest level. What are they doing that I'm not doing. Maybe its my slider adjustments, maybe I try to hard to simulate my teams actual playing style and get burned. So it must be the way I play. I agree on a statment made earlier saying that you can play the game arcadish or reaslistly. It does kinda seem like you can be a begginer to the game and succeed early on, but as the game progresses, it forces you to think. I'll tell you why in a second.

On the defensive side, you're right, it is more fun playing defense on 2K3 than on Madden. I played as ethier a LB or a CB on defense and always had a good play on the ball when it was in my side of the field. On Madden, despite going thru the drill and learning how to use a corner, the cpu has an advantage because of the momentum. The momentum when playing is good, but alittle bit too good to play on defnse with. You'll most often get caught out of position when playing as a corner because of control issues thus allowing a 30-50 yard gain. But on Madden, I enjoyed being a tackle anyway since it is quite posible to get ot the QB unlike 2K3. On 2K3, there was'nt a reason to be a tackle since you could hardly ever get to the QB and rush him. The cpu's QB was simply to fast. He'll do his drop step and find his target before anyone broke thru the line. The lack of user sacks bothered me a bit. Cause it takes away from a crucial element of playing defense. Especilly blitzing, it did'nt make sense to blitz with a corner since he would never got to him in time.


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Let me think of some examples. I don't think there are really any Ds in madden that are built for situations besides the extremes (running, hail maries). The others can work but there's no real logic to when and why you use them. This, I think, is one reason many people rely on B&R or want to stay away from playing zone so much. On offense, the best strategy is to find the plays that will get your men open b/c of AI issues and run motion to better succeed with running.




I like the defensive playbooks in Madden. This once again goes to the way I play I guess. Cause the cpu will audible and run a man in motion to find out my defense. You certainly cant pick any defensive play any time without knowing whats the situation. You'll get burned royally by the cpu. Pick a cover zone on 3rd and short, you'll get burned, pick a LB blitz on 3rd and long, you'll get burned once again. Its all stratergy for me. But this goes for the same reasons I listed on offense. Maybe my sliders, maybe my playing style.

On 2K3, I did'nt like thier defensive playbooks because it was way to many zones. (Maybe it was just my bears team) but thier formations did'nt feel real to me. Names like Bear were unfamiliar to me. I guess cause of all the years of Madden. Although I like the idea of picking my line coverage then my backs coverage. Thats a great idea. But even after going to practice and learning my D playbook, I stil had a hard time finding the right D play for my situations. And I hated the offensive playbooks of 2K3. It was way to many plays to learn. You only need a hundred or so to bring to each game since you only run 60 plays adverage. I like the fact on Madden that I was fimaliar on what play does what and what formation I can use to expose a defense with motions. On 2K3, its was just page and page of all these formations like Joker and Twins. Why come they just did'nt use the real names. I'm not sure if those are real formation names but the twins closely resembled a I formation if you ask me. And my bears team only had close to ten running plays out of the whole entire playybook. Maybe I did'nt look through it thourouly but I kept seeing the same 3 or 4 rushing plays in each formation and it really pissed me off because the cpu D would stop them after I used it once or twice.

But the playbooks all go down to a prefrence. I prefer maddens playbook because I'm familiar with it, I know what play stops what and what zone is for short yardage plays, long yardage plays, etc.

Now, getting back to what I said at the end of my first paragraph when I said as the game progresses you wont succeed as much. My main grip about Madden is the cpus dammit all to hellcomeback logic. I've been dising this since the PS1 days. The cpu counters every play you pick in the second half. And they make it blantently known when they move LBs over or play tight coverage. You can pick a long passing play on 3rd and inches and the cpu picks a dime package like they must have read your mind. Audibles stop the cheating but its only so much of it you can take before you give up. Bu its worse on defense, they miraculously break dozens of tackles on one drive to get them end the end zone. Their wide recievers all of sudden have the instincts of Randy Moss and thier QB turns into Elway. I dont know how many games I've quit because of it. I'm glad to see that its absent from NCAA and now I can see why that was everyones game of choice over Madden. The ratings do the talking for the entire game, not just a portion.

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One thing I realized recently is though madden has more momentum (yes 2k3 does have some, just not enough) the biggest difference is how things work. For instance in madden the speed burst controls the momentum. Meaning you hold A and build it up effecting how well you can turn and change directions. In 2k3 this is done with the analog stick. If you don't push all the way on the analog stick you run a more controlled style and save some "momentum" for naturally avoiding tackles. A in 2k3 is for speed burst not momentum building. The running style is also geared more to making you pick the best option for the situation (juke, stutter, spin, stiff arm, speed burst, shoulder charge) rather than madden's style geared towards just avoiding tacklers really. Yes it needs more momentum but the style is more realistic in my opinion.





I loved 2K3 running game. Just about one of the only things I appreciated. Because it was all on you and your skills to break tackles and one mistake, like shoulder charging instead of side stepping can make or break a long gain. You felt much more in control of the RB than in Madden. But I had a problem with the LBs coming at me full force and it was'nt a thing you can do about it because of no momentum. Alot of time I broke tackles without even pressing anything. But if it was more momentum it would have broke the running game wide open. Now you would be able to plan ahead and look at the next defender coming your way instead of the one that closest because you had to pay attention to him, cause you was'nt gonna get past him unless you try something. But it should be fixed if they intend to implement this chain reaction feature properly. Cause you need to know who the next defender is, what angle he's coming from and how fast. On 2K3, you simply could'nt do that because if the player is locked on to you, he's locked on to you.

I dont mind the running game on Madden. It provides the same challenge but with momentum so you have more options when running. You can make your own cutback because of the momentum. Anyway, I like it also becasue the ratings of the player speak more than your botton presses. You dont have to fill a meter to do a spin move, you dont have to press the stutter step botton to spin out of a tackle. You just avoid the tacklers until you're taken down. In real football, thier are'nt that many broken tackles by an outside running back. You have to run just like a outside running back. Use your speed to outsmart the defender. A power back has it easier in Madden because his ratings will help him break tackles instead of having to press a botton to shoulder charge.

And the A botton to speed burst on both games are closely the same. Its just one has more momentum than the other one. Adding to that, one makes you engage with the tacklers in order to break tackles and the other one makes it so you avoid them. If you think about real life football, everyone cant run like Barry Sanders or Eddie George so not evryone can break tackles like they can. And on 2K3, the speedy back that does try to avoid tacklers is useless since you're forced to engage with them.Having momentum adds a little stratergy to the running game if you think about it. But IMO, both games have good running games, 2K3s is better because it has more moves and better rewards for pressing the right botton at the right time. But one thing I enjoy is ratings controlling my player thats why my favorite sports game of all time is Baseball Pro 98 for the PC. The rating take affect in everything you do instead of your skill taking over.

All in all, if Madden could get rid of the cheating logic, then I'l be in heaven. And if 2K3 can make a better playcalling interface(which is fixed to resemble madden this year) fix the phisics of the ball in air and on contact(fixed) and add momentum(also fixed) then I will defetnetly give the game a shot at running a franchise.
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Old 07-23-2003, 03:20 PM   #58
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

thanks bro...this is a pretty good discussion even though these responses are long as hell. I hope others are reading. I won't quote to try to keep this shorter but will refer to things you said.

Your first comment was about the play calling and the playbooks and I think it's a common thought for many madden faithful and is something they should figure out in their head before "honestly" giving ESPN Football a try. I haven't put hardcore time into Madden since 2000 and the same is true for Live since 2001. All years before that I forced myself to play realistically after I got a hang of the game, which didn't take long b/c of the familiar feel of EA games. I think this is what you're doing. You're a true football fan so you call a true football game. It is possible to just abuse the AI and if you played against more humans (I'm assuming you don't of course) you'd probably be more frustrated with this problem with the game b/c you'd be forced to abandon the realistic play to keep up. Against only the cpu I also agree that you can make Madden arcadish or realistic depending on your style. This is why I don't knock those that do like the game but the fact that I don't have to make myself play realistic in 2k3, the game makes me, is why I prefer it's gameplay.

The playbooks are a continuation of something I think many madden fans have to admit to their favoritism to their title before they can give ESPN Football an honest try. You didn't really dispute my claim that calling defensive plays in madden is a matter of knowing which plays in the madden book stop what rather than calling the right football plays for the right situation. Madden's plays are made up and many don't seem to have much logic to them. 2k3's plays are modeled after the NFL team's books. If you see a lot of zones in the bears book that's b/c that's what they played most of the time in 2002. Check out the dolphins book. Basically the fact that madden has had the same books for so long makes it easier to pick up and play. It's funny b/c 2k3's offensive books are modeled after real team books also and the names are real unlike madden's books. Twin is one of many forms of the I set. These aspects are in fact SO much more realistic than madden but I think cause many madden fans problems bc it's another hurdle from just diving into the game. I guess we'll see if I'm right this year b/c ESPN Football has a 100 page reference guide in the game explaining all the plays. In short, I completely understand if you aren't comfortable with the play calls especially picking up the game so late and just trying to get a feel for it, but when comparing the two games 2k3 is much more realistic in this aspect. It'd be much easier for a football player to pick the correct plays in certain situations in 2k3 than in madden. That's what I meant by picking plays based on knowing how to stop AI rather than football knowledge.

I won't comment on madden's comeback knowledge b/c I'm not here to bash the game. One point you did mention I'll touch on though. You say you prefer ratings to matter in terms of your success. This also seems to be common among madden fans, where I, on the other hand want a balance between ratings and my skill. I don't want every team to play the same but I also don't want to be able to beat someone else just b/c I pick a better team. A better player should be able to take a lesser team and overcome weaker ratings b/c of better strategy and skill. I feel 2k3 captures this. Moss catches many more passes, runs better passes and breaks away from many more players than say Brandon Stokely. But if I switch to Stokely and control him before the catch I can increase my chance of success. The same is true with every other position outside of OG or OT. It's a feeling of playing the game rather than watching it. Ricky Williams will break at least one tackle on every run without doing any moves (this will change a little now with gang tackles), but I can still take James Allen and get good yards if I can get a handle of how and when to use the moves.

Since we're talking about the running game... playing my cousin I saw that as a madden player he wants to run away from every defender. When I play I don't run backwards to use momentum to create space. The analogy of touch football was perfect IMO. RBs, even scat backs, don't run away from tackles. They sprint to the outside but besides that they'll juke someone but never run away. Madden encourages using momentum to avoid being touched. You'd be surprised how many tackles real NFL RBs break...they always get touched. Just like madden the game forces you to change speeds but it also makes you read your downfield blocks and decide the best move to make on the defender. You really have many more options when running in 2k3 but it's more work. Madden's options are all about using momentum or juking. You also don't need to charge the arrow to make the moves work. In fact I only charge the arrow to get a true speed burst through holes and downfield.

If madden fans that truly want to give this game a try can admit to themselves (like you have) that they may be more comfortable with smaller playbooks with plays they're very familiar with and/or want teams to play more according to ratings rather than a balance of ratings/skill then it'll be easier for them to truly judge the game. Either they'll like the game b/c they'll see the limitations of madden in these areas or they won't like the game b/c they truly like this aspect of madden. At least they could pinpoint things. I think a lot of people that gave up on 2k3 couldn't really pinpoint what it was that bothered them.
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Old 07-24-2003, 09:31 AM   #59
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

In all honesty, I really enjoyed 2K3 when I first played the game. It was a refreshing experience from playing Madden all these years. But if I were to pinpoint issues of the game that made me stay with Madden then thats when most 2K3 fans attact you. They see the same things that I see and instead of helping me get past it, they just insult Madden cause they know the issues are true and blaring and there is'nt to much you can do about it.

But these are my issues with 2K3, some minor, some major.
Starting with the minor, as much as I loved 2K3s graphics, I wished to god that they had dirty unis and the field looking worn out towards the end of the game. I'm not a graphic whore, but MAdden spoiled me in that aspect. You talk about on the field atmosphere and Madden has me spoiled in that regard. Just like ASB did me with all the little details here in there that added to the overall presentation of a game. Hopefully ESPN has this or it will continue to be a minor problem.

2nd minor is was the field textures. How can you have some top of the line unis and players and have some cheap looking fields. Madden does'nt have it any better but its better. Add that along with the field not getting worn out and I've got another issue.

Now for the major. These are the intial reasons why I went back to Madden. Some I've already pointed out earlier in the thread. They were the floaty passes on offense. I could'nt stand it. Maybe I needed more pratice getting the timing down but watching my WR drop the ball cause the pass to a second to long to get to him causing the DB to crush him was just to annoying. I know the droped passes can be fixed with sliders but the floaty pass could'nt be fixed.

2nd was something we already touched on was the player momentum. Real reason it bothered me was cause you could'nt avoid a tackler while running cause he moves just as quick and turns just as fast as you do during a cutback.

Adding to the 2nd was the defensive players unbielivable dive into a tackle. It sort of seems like you can have a world of space between you and the tackler and that gap closes instanly because he dived from 5 yards away and now I'm on the ground.


Another was that the players felt kinda stiff and robotic while running. Seems to move around like bumper cars. Maddens player movement felt more fluid. But I noticed that all of Segas games last year had the same type of stiffness. NBA 2K3(which was my basketball game of choice last year and this year) NHL 2K3(same) and NCAA(same once again) They all had herky jerky player movments. I could get past it in the other games because running was'nt the main stratergy of the game. In footbal, running is basically how you get around the field and its an important part of the game and I could'nt get it past me especially since I had another football title I liked unlike the other sports where the 2K3s had no competition IMO.
The last was the playbooks. But I can see what you're saying with Maddens playbooks not using to much of real stratergy to stop the AI. This is just a matter of getting use to. Both games have a practice mode so that really should'nt be a valid complaint.

Maybe if Madden was like the other EA titles I would appreciate 2K3 more. I would'nt really have a choice but to appreciate it. But if I spend some more time with it, I'll probably learn to like they game like many of you do. But as long as I like Madden, 2k3/ESPN will always be second fiddle. I'm truly hoping that Sega/VC can change that around this year with a polished, glitch free game. Which IMO is impossible for any company/game to do.
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Old 07-24-2003, 10:59 AM   #60
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

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Graphik said:
...2nd was something we already touched on was the player momentum. Real reason it bothered me was cause you could'nt avoid a tackler while running cause he moves just as quick and turns just as fast as you do during a cutback.

Yup

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Adding to the 2nd was the defensive players unbielivable dive into a tackle. It sort of seems like you can have a world of space between you and the tackler and that gap closes instanly because he dived from 5 yards away and now I'm on the ground.




Yup, again... Good thing it's fixed in this edition.

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Another was that the players felt kinda stiff and robotic while running. Seems to move around like bumper cars. Maddens player movement felt more fluid.




I'm a 2kx fan and I must admit that this is the bane of the franchise... They gotta improve this. I went with Madden last year because of this and the unforgiving passing... Then my friend showed me the catch a.i. sliders and now we play 2k3!
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Old 07-24-2003, 01:00 PM   #61
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

I've always thought that NFL2k has had the best animations in the industry. Even starting with the Dreamcast back in 1999. I always want to see it get better, but I think it is great for where we are right now. You must be hard to please.
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Old 07-24-2003, 02:57 PM   #62
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

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Graphik said:
In all honesty, I really enjoyed 2K3 when I first played the game. It was a refreshing experience from playing Madden all these years. But if I were to pinpoint issues of the game that made me stay with Madden then thats when most 2K3 fans attact you. They see the same things that I see and instead of helping me get past it, they just insult Madden cause they know the issues are true and blaring and there is'nt to much you can do about it.

But these are my issues with 2K3, some minor, some major.
Starting with the minor, as much as I loved 2K3s graphics, I wished to god that they had dirty unis and the field looking worn out towards the end of the game. I'm not a graphic whore, but MAdden spoiled me in that aspect. You talk about on the field atmosphere and Madden has me spoiled in that regard. Just like ASB did me with all the little details here in there that added to the overall presentation of a game. Hopefully ESPN has this or it will continue to be a minor problem.

2nd minor is was the field textures. How can you have some top of the line unis and players and have some cheap looking fields. Madden does'nt have it any better but its better. Add that along with the field not getting worn out and I've got another issue.

Now for the major. These are the intial reasons why I went back to Madden. Some I've already pointed out earlier in the thread. They were the floaty passes on offense. I could'nt stand it. Maybe I needed more pratice getting the timing down but watching my WR drop the ball cause the pass to a second to long to get to him causing the DB to crush him was just to annoying. I know the droped passes can be fixed with sliders but the floaty pass could'nt be fixed.

2nd was something we already touched on was the player momentum. Real reason it bothered me was cause you could'nt avoid a tackler while running cause he moves just as quick and turns just as fast as you do during a cutback.

Adding to the 2nd was the defensive players unbielivable dive into a tackle. It sort of seems like you can have a world of space between you and the tackler and that gap closes instanly because he dived from 5 yards away and now I'm on the ground.


Another was that the players felt kinda stiff and robotic while running. Seems to move around like bumper cars. Maddens player movement felt more fluid. But I noticed that all of Segas games last year had the same type of stiffness. NBA 2K3(which was my basketball game of choice last year and this year) NHL 2K3(same) and NCAA(same once again) They all had herky jerky player movments. I could get past it in the other games because running was'nt the main stratergy of the game. In footbal, running is basically how you get around the field and its an important part of the game and I could'nt get it past me especially since I had another football title I liked unlike the other sports where the 2K3s had no competition IMO.
The last was the playbooks. But I can see what you're saying with Maddens playbooks not using to much of real stratergy to stop the AI. This is just a matter of getting use to. Both games have a practice mode so that really should'nt be a valid complaint.

Maybe if Madden was like the other EA titles I would appreciate 2K3 more. I would'nt really have a choice but to appreciate it. But if I spend some more time with it, I'll probably learn to like they game like many of you do. But as long as I like Madden, 2k3/ESPN will always be second fiddle. I'm truly hoping that Sega/VC can change that around this year with a polished, glitch free game. Which IMO is impossible for any company/game to do.




Well we know the fickle fans of both series can get on you. I live in Baltimore and work past DC. I actually kind of like the Redskins but have to hope they lose just b/c of some of their fans so I know what you mean.

If the dirt on the uni's does bother you then that's valid. Same with the fields.

As for the passes I could help you with that (and wrote a bit about it in my strategy guide at nfl2kx.com). Mostly, Madden allows you to drop far back, then look for the open man and then throw. In the real nfl you don't have nearly as much time, and you don't have it in 2k3. Try letting the CPU do your QB drops for a while to see how fast you're supposed to get rid of the ball. When he stops running back and starts hopping that's when the WRs make their cuts. Throw it then and you'll see them catch a lot more. You can also replay plays and count the steps you're taking. Plays with a 90 are 3 step drops (some 1 step) and 50 are 5 step drops (some 7). Count how many YOU'RE taking to see what I mean.

As for momentum it's all about changing your focus from avoiding tackles to breaking them. You can cut back but it's usually better to juke (button to "cutback" rather than just moving the stick).

I can't even comment on the dive anymore b/c it's been so long since I downloaded the patch that its a completely different game and I've never played on PS2.

It's funny you mention how much you like the other Sega games despite the same thing that bothers you in NFL2k3. I think it's another example of you being used to Madden. You really think basketball isn't all about running? You probably take advantage of the cross overs and spin moves, etc. Just play NFL2k3 the same way. Don't avoid tacklers, put moves on them with the buttons.

I also think Madden IS like other EA titles. In fact, if it wasn't for that 2 year span that NBA Live just sucked I think they'd be right next to madden on the top of all the charts. The games have the same feel really and focus on big plays. There just aren't as many big plays in football and they'd have to turn into Blitz to go out of their way to highlight them anymore. EA games are a combo of sim and highlight reel and football just has the least flashy highlight real.
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Old 07-24-2003, 04:16 PM   #63
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

You know, this discussion with you has tempted me to try 2K3 again tonite. That is if I can step away from NCAA. I cant touch Madden again because the comeback mode is rediculous. I must have quit my last 7 games because the score at halftime would be 21-21 or something high like that. All because the cpu refuses to be far behind come the second half.
But my last full game I played of 2K3, the end game score was 17-20, off a field goal in the last seconds. It felt good, but when I kept playing futher, those gripes just kept jumping out on me. So I put down football games for good. That was 2 weeks ago, now I have NCAA and I love that game so much that I'm patiently waiting Maddens arrival in hopes that the gameplay is the exact same.

But in the meantime, I need to go ahead and give 2K3 another shot. This time I'm gonna pick another teams playbook cause I hated the bears with passion. But if you dont see my report on the game tommorow, I'll defetnitley spend some time with it this weekend. And plus my boy is coming over, I'm gonna attemp to show him 2K3 hoping that he sees that there is major competition in the football genre. He's a true to life EA(not just Madden) but EA fan. He hates Live but refuses to try NBA 2K3. He played that a few times but did'nt get into it enough. But I need to show him that Sega/VC is where its at regarding sports games. If they can change my mind about football, then you can consider me a loyalist. But in the mean time, I'm still stuck on MAdden.

I really dont think Madden has went the way of the other titles. Madden does blend sim and arcade but like we both agreed on its on how you play the game. Live, NHL and Fifa were strickly arcade games now. There is no possible way to make those games sim. Those games break the laws of physics. But this year with Live, thier adding the option to make it sim with sliders. (Thank God) But like so many ppl complain, Madden has'nt really changed it gameplay/physics/graphics since the move to upper consoles. I can name each year when the other titles started heading in the opposite direction.
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Old 07-24-2003, 05:53 PM   #64
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Re: player movement in ESPN Football

wow, very nice guys.

And graphik, everything you have said is valid.
I have the very same complaints and I love to play 2k3.
You wouldn't believe how many glitches I've seen playing with Lbzrules.

Hopefully 2k4 fixes all of our complaints,field textures,sacks, drops, Dline pressure,etc.
All we can do now is wait.
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