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fossen · 09-15-2003, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Tears2040 said:
What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything.

Ummmm .... they did. Defensive players can be charged.

Graphik · 09-15-2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

fossen said:

Quote:

Tears2040 said:
What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything.

Ummmm .... they did. Defensive players can be charged.

I like the defensive charge. Its nothing like reading a play perfectly as a LB and charging to drill the RB and stop a potentially big gain.

Tears2040 · 09-15-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

fossen said:

Quote:

Tears2040 said:
What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything.

Ummmm .... they did. Defensive players can be charged.

, So you're trying to tell me that a defender trying to tackle a ball carrier has the same amount of "Charge Moves"?

If I charge up a defender all it does is slow him down, + please quote the rest of my post to keep my message in contex.

Also I do beleive the "Charge" while be fun is still over the top & needs to be toned down.

I love the running game, but at times it is to effective

, peace

wco81 · 09-15-2003, 12:39 PM

I haven't gotten into the habit of using the charge but I think in theory it could lead to a lot of arcadish plays. I've seen the broken tackles used against me and if you look at the NFL, how many times does a RB execute a straightarm in a game to evade tackles? It's funny saying this after Jamal Lewis set an NFL record but he didn't have to break many tackles. Ravens just seemed to be gashing the Browns front 7 and most of the time, he was running full speed in the secondary, just cutting away from DBs trying to come up and tackle him.

I understand why VC may have done it. Players want to feel they have control over how the plays execute. They want to show their skillz. VC also wants to differentiate itself from Madden. No point in imitating Madden's momentum physics as there might not be reasons for people to buy another game than Madden if the competitors tried to imitate it.

But in football, it appears one of the primary attribute of a RB is his speed/acceleration/quickness. Scouts and coaches often talk of a player's "burst" or "explosiveness." That is not what the charge does. Rather, that is the speed burst (tapping the X).

When a back is trying to hit a hole, he's not holding back or building up some potential, as holding down the charge seems to be doing. Since Newton, we know that F=ma so it's advantageous to hit the hole as quickly as possible. Sure on different kinds of run plays, blocking needs to develop.

One thing however is that even while speedbursting away, you can still cut pretty sharply. Supposedly there is more momentum than in the past but you can negotiate holes pretty precisely even while bursting. And I have bounced off some tackles while bursting so the charge and special moves haven't seemed as necessary.

The other thing at work may be the kind of tackling you're getting. A lot of kill shot type dives and lunges (on blitz plays, I often see LBs go horizontal in the air). Well in real life, sometimes a defensive team goes for too many kill shots and end up missing tackles because they get away from wrapping the ball carriers up. Boring but fundamental football.

BTW, Madden also has big runs this year too. Not necessairly broken tackles but guys bouncing off defenders or gliding along and then a lot of tackle animations where the ballcarrier falls forward for a lot of yards. And you can't get away with a nickel defense for instance againt an I-formation or a double TE set like you could last year.

In one sense, you have to really commit to run defense in both games, pinching the line, shifting the backers, etc. That should be basic in football. But at other times, the schemes you run don't seem to matter as much as they should. Occasionally, you see that in the NFL as I'm sure the Browns weren't trying to play soft.

It's hard to find the right balance in games, so that fun features like the charge system can't take over. I've had some success containing the run so I'm not saying the charge is impossible to deal with. Some people claim VC tried to make a more offensively-oriented game with highlight plays to appeal to a broader audience. Perhaps we need to cut them some slack if that is the case. But an option to turn off the charge as well as adding more momentum might be a good compromise for the sim players.

fossen · 09-15-2003, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Tears2040 said:

Quote:

fossen said:

Quote:

Tears2040 said:
What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything.

Ummmm .... they did. Defensive players can be charged.

, So you're trying to tell me that a defender trying to tackle a ball carrier has the same amount of "Charge Moves"?

Maybe I'm missing something ... but if you are tackling, how many charge moves do you need? If you want to tackle, does any other move except "tackle" even matter?

But any defensive move can be charged.... including "tackle".

Quote:

If I charge up a defender all it does is slow him down

Charging up a ballcarrier slows him down as well. That's the tradeoff. That's the balance - you are sacrificing speed for power.

Quote:

+ please quote the rest of my post to keep my message in contex.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I prefer to quote only the part of the message that I am responding to. I started off in ye olde USENET, where it was extrememly poor form to quote tons of text. All excessive quoting does is clutter up the forum ... people can see your original context by quickly looking up.

Cardot · 09-15-2003, 02:38 PM

Respondendo a:

wco81 said:
It's funny saying this after Jamal Lewis set an NFL record but he didn't have to break many tackles.

You must have seen different hilights than I did. I seem to recall him breaking several tackles.

sportsgeist · 09-15-2003, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Tears2040 said:
What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything.

Also I must admit that no one really uses the charge , because it slows you down & takes to long to load, but once you do have it charged you can almost always break the first tackle.

The ONLY problem I see in the running game, is the defenses pursuit.

I played a game today online aginst the Raiders & Garner could not be catched if he had a atep on any defender.
This needs to be toned down, I love the running game but at times the defenders pursuit is always at a disadvantage to the ball carrier.

AI sliders fix this problem easy offline, but online it's sometimes a problem.

Out of about 20 games I'e played I could honestly say that only maybe 1-3 games I have experienced problems stopping the run, but for the most part my "D" has been effective.

, peace

Smooth move Tears2040 it's nice to see you're playing the game or not because you can charge the defensive players.

You only have a problem stopping anything is if the play you called isn't good for stopping the play the other team called.

mvb34 · 09-15-2003, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Cardot said:

Quote:

wco81 said:
It's funny saying this after Jamal Lewis set an NFL record but he didn't have to break many tackles.

You must have seen different hilights than I did. I seem to recall him breaking several tackles.

No he didn't have to break many tackles!!!

09-15-2003, 12:08 PM	#9
fossen Blbflth zp! OVR: 28* Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 7,098	Re: \" charge up system\" is the culprit for games shortcomings Quote: *Tears2040 said:* What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything. Ummmm .... they did. Defensive players can be charged.

09-15-2003, 12:10 PM	#10
Graphik Prsnr#70460649 OVR: 22* Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chi-Town, Ill-State Posts: 10,580	Re: \" charge up system\" is the culprit for games shortcomings Quote: *fossen said:* Quote: *Tears2040 said:* What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything. Ummmm .... they did. Defensive players can be charged. I like the defensive charge. Its nothing like reading a play perfectly as a LB and charging to drill the RB and stop a potentially big gain.

09-15-2003, 12:11 PM	#11
Tears2040 Banned OVR: 4 Join Date: May 2003	Re: \" charge up system\" is the culprit for games shortcomings Quote: *fossen said:* Quote: *Tears2040 said:* What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything. Ummmm .... they did. Defensive players can be charged. , So you're trying to tell me that a defender trying to tackle a ball carrier has the same amount of "Charge Moves"? If I charge up a defender all it does is slow him down, + please quote the rest of my post to keep my message in contex. Also I do beleive the "Charge" while be fun is still over the top & needs to be toned down. I love the running game, but at times it is to effective , peace

09-15-2003, 12:39 PM	#12
wco81 Banned OVR: 12 Join Date: Jul 2002	Re: \" charge up system\" is the culprit for games shortcomings I haven't gotten into the habit of using the charge but I think in theory it could lead to a lot of arcadish plays. I've seen the broken tackles used against me and if you look at the NFL, how many times does a RB execute a straightarm in a game to evade tackles? It's funny saying this after Jamal Lewis set an NFL record but he didn't have to break many tackles. Ravens just seemed to be gashing the Browns front 7 and most of the time, he was running full speed in the secondary, just cutting away from DBs trying to come up and tackle him. I understand why VC may have done it. Players want to feel they have control over how the plays execute. They want to show their skillz. VC also wants to differentiate itself from Madden. No point in imitating Madden's momentum physics as there might not be reasons for people to buy another game than Madden if the competitors tried to imitate it. But in football, it appears one of the primary attribute of a RB is his speed/acceleration/quickness. Scouts and coaches often talk of a player's "burst" or "explosiveness." That is not what the charge does. Rather, that is the speed burst (tapping the X). When a back is trying to hit a hole, he's not holding back or building up some potential, as holding down the charge seems to be doing. Since Newton, we know that F=ma so it's advantageous to hit the hole as quickly as possible. Sure on different kinds of run plays, blocking needs to develop. One thing however is that even while speedbursting away, you can still cut pretty sharply. Supposedly there is more momentum than in the past but you can negotiate holes pretty precisely even while bursting. And I have bounced off some tackles while bursting so the charge and special moves haven't seemed as necessary. The other thing at work may be the kind of tackling you're getting. A lot of kill shot type dives and lunges (on blitz plays, I often see LBs go horizontal in the air). Well in real life, sometimes a defensive team goes for too many kill shots and end up missing tackles because they get away from wrapping the ball carriers up. Boring but fundamental football. BTW, Madden also has big runs this year too. Not necessairly broken tackles but guys bouncing off defenders or gliding along and then a lot of tackle animations where the ballcarrier falls forward for a lot of yards. And you can't get away with a nickel defense for instance againt an I-formation or a double TE set like you could last year. In one sense, you have to really commit to run defense in both games, pinching the line, shifting the backers, etc. That should be basic in football. But at other times, the schemes you run don't seem to matter as much as they should. Occasionally, you see that in the NFL as I'm sure the Browns weren't trying to play soft. It's hard to find the right balance in games, so that fun features like the charge system can't take over. I've had some success containing the run so I'm not saying the charge is impossible to deal with. Some people claim VC tried to make a more offensively-oriented game with highlight plays to appeal to a broader audience. Perhaps we need to cut them some slack if that is the case. But an option to turn off the charge as well as adding more momentum might be a good compromise for the sim players.

09-15-2003, 01:26 PM	#13
fossen Blbflth zp! OVR: 28* Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 7,098	Re: \" charge up system\" is the culprit for games shortcomings Quote: *Tears2040 said:* Quote: *fossen said:* Quote: *Tears2040 said:* What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything. Ummmm .... they did. Defensive players can be charged. , So you're trying to tell me that a defender trying to tackle a ball carrier has the same amount of "Charge Moves"? Maybe I'm missing something ... but if you are tackling, how many charge moves do you need? If you want to tackle, does any other move except "tackle" even matter? But any defensive move can be charged.... including "tackle". Quote: If I charge up a defender all it does is slow him down Charging up a ballcarrier slows him down as well. That's the tradeoff. That's the balance - you are sacrificing speed for power. Quote: + please quote the rest of my post to keep my message in contex. Thanks for the suggestion, but I prefer to quote only the part of the message that I am responding to. I started off in ye olde USENET, where it was extrememly poor form to quote tons of text. All excessive quoting does is clutter up the forum ... people can see your original context by quickly looking up.

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09-15-2003, 02:38 PM	#14
Cardot I'm not on InstantFace. OVR: 22 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Slider Hell Posts: 6,172	Re: \" charge up system\" is the culprit for games shortcomings Respondendo a: *wco81 said:* It's funny saying this after Jamal Lewis set an NFL record but he didn't have to break many tackles. You must have seen different hilights than I did. I seem to recall him breaking several tackles.

09-15-2003, 03:13 PM	#15
sportsgeist MVP OVR: 10 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Midwest	Re: \" charge up system\" is the culprit for games shortcomings Quote: *Tears2040 said:* What they need to do is have a charge system for the defensive players, then it will balance everything. Also I must admit that no one really uses the charge , because it slows you down & takes to long to load, but once you do have it charged you can almost always break the first tackle. The ONLY problem I see in the running game, is the defenses pursuit. I played a game today online aginst the Raiders & Garner could not be catched if he had a atep on any defender. This needs to be toned down, I love the running game but at times the defenders pursuit is always at a disadvantage to the ball carrier. AI sliders fix this problem easy offline, but online it's sometimes a problem. Out of about 20 games I'e played I could honestly say that only maybe 1-3 games I have experienced problems stopping the run, but for the most part my "D" has been effective. , peace Smooth move Tears2040 it's nice to see you're playing the game or not because you can charge the defensive players. You only have a problem stopping anything is if the play you called isn't good for stopping the play the other team called.

09-15-2003, 03:30 PM	#16
mvb34 S*cd* P*l C-Chmpn OVR: 40* Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Washington DC Blog Entries: 1	Re: \" charge up system\" is the culprit for games shortcomings Quote: *Cardot said:* Quote: *wco81 said:* It's funny saying this after Jamal Lewis set an NFL record but he didn't have to break many tackles. You must have seen different hilights than I did. I seem to recall him breaking several tackles. No he didn't have to break many tackles!!!

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" charge up system" is the culprit for games shortcomings