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RawkerOne · 10-09-2003, 07:48 PM

i don't know if what you guys are asking for could be done to the point inwhich you believe it should be done. Alot of the times i'm sure animation is left out because it wouldn't look realistic in coordination with the timing because decision making and the timing of plays is alot more open ended then in real life.

the thing about transition animation in videogames is that it could lead to 50 different animations. transition animations are usually so quick that you'll probably never be able to tell when they occur unless you are working with the frames before and after outside of the game. There is another problem, the timing is controlled by the user. so say you have a run cycle that consists of 90 frames, are you going to do 90 variations of a transition animaiton to make it realistic?

VC has developed one of the best animation teams in all gaming, and ever since they got their mo-cap studio (i think it was just after 2k1 was finished) they have been doing some pretty amazing stuff. Like the goalie transitions in NHL 2K3:

"Goalies in past NHL games have had to return to their ready-state animation before going into additional shot-block animations. In NHL 2K3 the goalies now have an active animation cycle that allows them to go from one save to the next. For instance, when a team has a power play going and is pressing its attack hard and crowding the net with multiple players who are trying to slap the puck in, you'll see the goalie reaching in one direction after the next and using every limb in order to deflect the shot. It's actually very impressive to see."

They have done alot of amazing things is this years football as well, gang tackles that are as realistic outside of a simulation that you could ask for. Tag team blocking, hb's pushing their blockers, hb's pushing off of blockers, etc.

Anyways i guess what i'm trying to say is that VC has been one of the most innovative animation teams in gaming, and they haven't had their own motion capture studio for very long so give them time. I'm sure they have alot of plans but with spots games (nfl, nba, nhl) the development schedule is pretty hectic and they probably have a million things they'd like to do but can't.

btw they do breathe in cold games, but i know what your saying.

i would like them to impliment a physics engine to handle the post tackle animaiton for the tackled player, and considering Havok has developed a way to seemlessly transition between key frame and dynamic driven animation and then back again, it is a reality.

queens211 · 10-09-2003, 08:24 PM

Well said and I totally agree with the fact that VC has some of the most innovative animations in sports gaming today. They have definately raised the bar. Again though and with regard to football, it is just some of the little things that I mentioned before that I wish would be addressed. They do however improve each year, more so than their competitors. At least that is something we can count on each year. Hopefully they won't lose their focus because they are slowly building a solid reputation based on that premise.

Kanobi · 10-10-2003, 10:22 PM

Although VC is ahead of the game...it doesn't mean there isn't alot of room for improvement in the animation department.

Jukes could be more dynamic and less stiff

Ol/DL anims could use an overhual...especially in regards to the outside pass rush. Also, the Olinemen, as someone mentioned earlier, have a kinda "low self-esteem" stance that looks weird and is totally off from how real olinemen move around and strafe in the pocket. The Oline animations could use an overhual possibly.

Qb movements and throwing motion needs an overhual

A huge amount of animations are neede for changing directions based on certain situations

More hard hitting solo tackle animations are need. The "Forearm/Elbo" tackle needs more friends. lol!

I think Rawker mnetioned a type of "exclamation" tackle dynamic be added where a player can still come in ad dish out some additional punishment when the ball carrier is down. Not a late hit but you guys know what I mean.

VC should have different mo-cap running animations for Wrs, scrambling and non-scrambling qbs, and Linemen.

Better linebacker animations in terms of footwork and staying active while reading a play. I hate how the LBs, once the ball is snapped, stand straight up and in one spot before they react to whats happening because by the time they do...they have a blocker on them. Lbs usually shift around while reading to be ready to react and shed potential blockers.

I'll be back with more

jordan0386 · 10-10-2003, 10:28 PM

you have great ideas that can last through 2k9...keep em comin

Kanobi · 10-10-2003, 10:52 PM

lol! Yeah man. I'm always comin up with stuff.

heres more:

You know what really needs help?? The No-Huddle animations. The way all the players zip around when a no huddle is called...looks wack!!! 300lb linemen get back to the LOS at the same speed as a 190 lb CB does. Not cool, VC.

I think Visual Concepts touched on something with how the Olinemen get set each at their own pace when regular plays are called....they could use that same technique for the no huddle anims overall for all the players.

RawkerOne · 10-11-2003, 12:06 AM

alot of the animations that you mention i don't mind, maybe your just knit-picking but to me they are done very well and for example: the juke. There are like 3 juke moves, all are analog (can be done in variations) and one of them can be used in two direction. now add that there are also about 4 secondary animations after each juke depending on the situation (probably more once you add in the auto jump, pushing off lineman, and pushing lineman) plus there are probably 4 for if a player is tackled, then add to the fact that the player can be gang tackled and the sequences can probably add up to 100+ different animation sequences that can be produced by the juke move. Now compare that to last years juke or madden/fever/gameday/ncaa/gamebreaker's juke. the actual animation of the juke is simply amazing, no matter what position you use it from it looks sweet. try it in a situation that you wouldn't normally use it (maybe running sideways) and you'll be blown away by the outcome (of the animation).

now if we compare the animation in any VC developed game and compare it to games in different genre's then this game's animation will seem light years ahead of it's time.

not sure if i mentioned this earlier but we all have patterns to how we play and we tend to see the same animations over and over because we don't try new things once we get comfortable with the game. i still see new animations to this day.

Kanobi · 10-11-2003, 12:29 AM

They should some "slow to get up" animations after players get their bells rung with hard hits...possibly when the defensive player is Charged are just seriously hard hits in general. They could also have players getting up slowly to better depict fatigue. This would add another level of realism and further decrease the whole synchronized appearance of everything.

One animation from Madden that VC should definitely add is wrs calling for the pass Interfence flag! I love that anim and I'm surprise VC didn't add it. in fact they should add a host of penalty calling animations for players....holding, clipping, facemasks, etc. That'd be tight!!!!

How about having the refs in a conference in a conference discussing the call and have a few players hanging around the ref huddle trying to plead their case or listen in on the convo!1sweet!! This is a cutscene but it'd still be pretty tight.

Kanobi · 10-11-2003, 12:43 AM

Quote:

RawkerOne said:
alot of the animations that you mention i don't mind, maybe your just knit-picking but to me they are done very well

Like I said before, VC does an excellent job with the animations but theres always room for improvement. Thats I'm merely making suggestions. if VC like them and decides to use them ...cool. If Not...cool. Unless you work for VC...and it almost seems like you do...I think you should relax man. No harm can really come from somebody making suggestions that could possibly improve the game.

Quote:

RawkerOne said:
There are like 3 juke moves, all are analog (can be done in variations) and one of them can be used in two direction. now add that there are also about 4 secondary animations after each juke depending on the situation (probably more once you add in the auto jump, pushing off lineman, and pushing lineman) plus there are probably 4 for if a player is tackled, then add to the fact that the player can be gang tackled and the sequences can probably add up to 100+ different animation sequences that can be produced by the juke move.

Thats good to know even though i said nothing about there not being ENOUGH juke animations in the game. I said the Jukes themselves look very stiff and upright and that they could be alot more dynamic.

Quote:

RawkerOne said:
not sure if i mentioned this earlier but we all have patterns to how we play and we tend to see the same animations over and over because we don't try new things once we get comfortable with the game. i still see new animations to this day.

Good for you!!!

Although I don't recall ever saying anything about repetiveness of animations or how often they are seen...its good to know you still see new ones. Glad you're having fun!

10-09-2003, 07:48 PM	#17
RawkerOne Rookie OVR: 3 Join Date: Oct 2002	Re: VC Needs To Add Another 1,000 animations Next Year BUT... i don't know if what you guys are asking for could be done to the point inwhich you believe it should be done. Alot of the times i'm sure animation is left out because it wouldn't look realistic in coordination with the timing because decision making and the timing of plays is alot more open ended then in real life. the thing about transition animation in videogames is that it could lead to 50 different animations. transition animations are usually so quick that you'll probably never be able to tell when they occur unless you are working with the frames before and after outside of the game. There is another problem, the timing is controlled by the user. so say you have a run cycle that consists of 90 frames, are you going to do 90 variations of a transition animaiton to make it realistic? VC has developed one of the best animation teams in all gaming, and ever since they got their mo-cap studio (i think it was just after 2k1 was finished) they have been doing some pretty amazing stuff. Like the goalie transitions in NHL 2K3: "Goalies in past NHL games have had to return to their ready-state animation before going into additional shot-block animations. In NHL 2K3 the goalies now have an active animation cycle that allows them to go from one save to the next. For instance, when a team has a power play going and is pressing its attack hard and crowding the net with multiple players who are trying to slap the puck in, you'll see the goalie reaching in one direction after the next and using every limb in order to deflect the shot. It's actually very impressive to see." They have done alot of amazing things is this years football as well, gang tackles that are as realistic outside of a simulation that you could ask for. Tag team blocking, hb's pushing their blockers, hb's pushing off of blockers, etc. Anyways i guess what i'm trying to say is that VC has been one of the most innovative animation teams in gaming, and they haven't had their own motion capture studio for very long so give them time. I'm sure they have alot of plans but with spots games (nfl, nba, nhl) the development schedule is pretty hectic and they probably have a million things they'd like to do but can't. btw they do breathe in cold games, but i know what your saying. i would like them to impliment a physics engine to handle the post tackle animaiton for the tackled player, and considering Havok has developed a way to seemlessly transition between key frame and dynamic driven animation and then back again, it is a reality.

10-09-2003, 08:24 PM	#18
queens211 Rookie OVR: 3 Join Date: Jan 2003	Re: VC Needs To Add Another 1,000 animations Next Year BUT... Well said and I totally agree with the fact that VC has some of the most innovative animations in sports gaming today. They have definately raised the bar. Again though and with regard to football, it is just some of the little things that I mentioned before that I wish would be addressed. They do however improve each year, more so than their competitors. At least that is something we can count on each year. Hopefully they won't lose their focus because they are slowly building a solid reputation based on that premise.

10-10-2003, 10:22 PM	#19
Kanobi HF Clss f '09 OVR: 14* Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,980 Blog Entries: 17	Re: VC Needs To Add Another 1,000 animations Next Year BUT... Although VC is ahead of the game...it doesn't mean there isn't alot of room for improvement in the animation department. Jukes could be more dynamic and less stiff Ol/DL anims could use an overhual...especially in regards to the outside pass rush. Also, the Olinemen, as someone mentioned earlier, have a kinda "low self-esteem" stance that looks weird and is totally off from how real olinemen move around and strafe in the pocket. The Oline animations could use an overhual possibly. Qb movements and throwing motion needs an overhual A huge amount of animations are neede for changing directions based on certain situations More hard hitting solo tackle animations are need. The "Forearm/Elbo" tackle needs more friends. lol! I think Rawker mnetioned a type of "exclamation" tackle dynamic be added where a player can still come in ad dish out some additional punishment when the ball carrier is down. Not a late hit but you guys know what I mean. VC should have different mo-cap running animations for Wrs, scrambling and non-scrambling qbs, and Linemen. Better linebacker animations in terms of footwork and staying active while reading a play. I hate how the LBs, once the ball is snapped, stand straight up and in one spot before they react to whats happening because by the time they do...they have a blocker on them. Lbs usually shift around while reading to be ready to react and shed potential blockers. I'll be back with more

10-10-2003, 10:28 PM	#20
jordan0386 Banned OVR: 18 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bronx, NY	Re: VC Needs To Add Another 1,000 animations Next Year BUT... you have great ideas that can last through 2k9...keep em comin

10-10-2003, 10:52 PM	#21
Kanobi HF Clss f '09 OVR: 14* Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,980 Blog Entries: 17	Re: VC Needs To Add Another 1,000 animations Next Year BUT... lol! Yeah man. I'm always comin up with stuff. heres more: You know what really needs help?? The No-Huddle animations. The way all the players zip around when a no huddle is called...looks wack!!! 300lb linemen get back to the LOS at the same speed as a 190 lb CB does. Not cool, VC. I think Visual Concepts touched on something with how the Olinemen get set each at their own pace when regular plays are called....they could use that same technique for the no huddle anims overall for all the players.

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10-11-2003, 12:06 AM	#22
RawkerOne Rookie OVR: 3 Join Date: Oct 2002	Re: VC Needs To Add Another 1,000 animations Next Year BUT... alot of the animations that you mention i don't mind, maybe your just knit-picking but to me they are done very well and for example: the juke. There are like 3 juke moves, all are analog (can be done in variations) and one of them can be used in two direction. now add that there are also about 4 secondary animations after each juke depending on the situation (probably more once you add in the auto jump, pushing off lineman, and pushing lineman) plus there are probably 4 for if a player is tackled, then add to the fact that the player can be gang tackled and the sequences can probably add up to 100+ different animation sequences that can be produced by the juke move. Now compare that to last years juke or madden/fever/gameday/ncaa/gamebreaker's juke. the actual animation of the juke is simply amazing, no matter what position you use it from it looks sweet. try it in a situation that you wouldn't normally use it (maybe running sideways) and you'll be blown away by the outcome (of the animation). now if we compare the animation in any VC developed game and compare it to games in different genre's then this game's animation will seem light years ahead of it's time. not sure if i mentioned this earlier but we all have patterns to how we play and we tend to see the same animations over and over because we don't try new things once we get comfortable with the game. i still see new animations to this day.

10-11-2003, 12:29 AM	#23
Kanobi HF Clss f '09 OVR: 14* Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,980 Blog Entries: 17	Re: VC Needs To Add Another 1,000 animations Next Year BUT... They should some "slow to get up" animations after players get their bells rung with hard hits...possibly when the defensive player is Charged are just seriously hard hits in general. They could also have players getting up slowly to better depict fatigue. This would add another level of realism and further decrease the whole synchronized appearance of everything. One animation from Madden that VC should definitely add is wrs calling for the pass Interfence flag! I love that anim and I'm surprise VC didn't add it. in fact they should add a host of penalty calling animations for players....holding, clipping, facemasks, etc. That'd be tight!!!! How about having the refs in a conference in a conference discussing the call and have a few players hanging around the ref huddle trying to plead their case or listen in on the convo!1sweet!! This is a cutscene but it'd still be pretty tight.

10-11-2003, 12:43 AM	#24
Kanobi HF Clss f '09 OVR: 14* Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,980 Blog Entries: 17	Re: VC Needs To Add Another 1,000 animations Next Year BUT... Quote: *RawkerOne said:* alot of the animations that you mention i don't mind, maybe your just knit-picking but to me they are done very well Like I said before, VC does an excellent job with the animations but theres always room for improvement. Thats I'm merely making suggestions. if VC like them and decides to use them ...cool. If Not...cool. Unless you work for VC...and it almost seems like you do...I think you should relax man. No harm can really come from somebody making suggestions that could possibly improve the game. Quote: *RawkerOne said:* There are like 3 juke moves, all are analog (can be done in variations) and one of them can be used in two direction. now add that there are also about 4 secondary animations after each juke depending on the situation (probably more once you add in the auto jump, pushing off lineman, and pushing lineman) plus there are probably 4 for if a player is tackled, then add to the fact that the player can be gang tackled and the sequences can probably add up to 100+ different animation sequences that can be produced by the juke move. Thats good to know even though i said nothing about there not being ENOUGH juke animations in the game. I said the Jukes themselves look very stiff and upright and that they could be alot more dynamic. Quote: *RawkerOne said:* not sure if i mentioned this earlier but we all have patterns to how we play and we tend to see the same animations over and over because we don't try new things once we get comfortable with the game. i still see new animations to this day. Good for you!!! Although I don't recall ever saying anything about repetiveness of animations or how often they are seen...its good to know you still see new ones. Glad you're having fun!

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