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Dark_Lord_Vader · 03-24-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

gooberstabone said:
Good point. I thought we'd get more of that this past year. The SB was OK, but I thought all the playoff games were gonna have more life.

And we still don't have the crowd noise swelling DURING big play, only afterward.

I remember that FIFA '97 even had that. I used to love that!

Me too goober. I expected a lot more detail in Playoff games. This year was disappointing in that a Playoff Game still feels like a regular season game. Sure, Dan & Peter say 'Welcome to this year's Wild Card Game…' and there is a logo on the field that simply states 'PLAYOFFS', but other than these two details, the game begins, plays, feels sounds and ends like every other game. I really hope Sega concentrates on the second season known as The Playoffs. NFL2k5 would be awesome if the Playoffs unlocked a unique presentation style that looks and sounds totally different from the regular season. Maybe have player introductions at the beginning of the game. Have more crowd cut-scenes where the home crowd is decked out in Divisional Championship apparel. Bring back the 'Pump Up The Crowd' feature and have it be effective in a home Playoff Game. Have the visiting team false start once in a while during a crucial part of the game because you got your crowd to get loud. Maybe a half-time show with an interview of one of the coaches asking him what they need to do differently for the second half. Most importantly, have a post game celebration for the winner, with cut-scenes of the losers with their head in their hands, shaking in disbelief. If the visiting team won, show the depression of the fans in the stands after the game. If the home team wins, have confetti, canon fire, fireworks and Championship Hats and T-Shirts on some of the players. NFL2k4 made a big first step with the Super Bowl presentation this year. Now they need to make every Playoff Game as special as the Super Bowl is this year, and then have the Super Bowl be about 20 times deeper, unique and enjoyable.

wwharton · 03-24-2004, 02:20 PM

Quote:

gooberstabone said:

Quote:

wwharton said:
...For example, there is a primary WR, others may be decoys but there's at least a secondary but there may be a full progression... whatever. When you flip the play this is still true. The only people that would have a problem with this are those that don't really care about the point of the play and just call it and throw to the guy they see open. Not that there's anything wrong with that but to master the game you do more than that when calling your plays. If your brain works that way you'd think the guy on the left is open, I should be able to hit L. If you're more about strategy which the game is geared to you'd probably say, "primary reciever is a, secondary is x, etc." so flipping the play wouldn't change that. If you did flip it and it changed that then thinking like that would actually screw you up even more.

see? different games, different philosophies... it just is what it is.

I see what you're saying... But I must be thinking with the wrong side of my brain or somethin' .

'Cause let's say I running QUADS. I know (just from playing the game a hundred times) that the left slot receiver is the "X" button on Xbox. The game tells me that that's the primary receiver by putting his name above the play and by marking his route in red. Now in my mind, I know that he may not be open, even though I definitely will look to him first. So I may make the slot reciever on the right side my secondary target (the "Y" button).

I get to the line of scrimmage-- in the heat of battle, palms sweating, going up against my best bro. For whatever reason, I decide to flip the play. In ESPN, my primary reciever stays the "X" receiver, but I press "Y" to try to hit him because his on the right side of the field.

So I still have primary and secondary guys, but mentally, I assign them to spots on the field corresponding to original button layout, and not a floating button layout.

I understand how your brain is working and forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying there's something wrong with that. My point is I've found the best way to approach the LOS in ESPN is to know the patterns of the play you called and when you look over the d have an idea of who will be open at the time based on that. If I flip a play based on what i see i've already decided i'm flipping b/c a certain pattern will work better if i do and would know the button assigned to that pattern.

It seems that madden reinforces more reading defenses after the snap than before. This goes along with the amount of time they continue to let you have in the pocket as well, but that's another topic. For a system that encourages more reads after the snap then keeping the buttons in the same positions makes more sense. For a system that encourages making correct play calls for the D and reading the d more presnap it makes more sense to keep buttons aligned to the patterns.

the long and short of it is ESPN doesn't need to change their button layout b/c it accomplishes what they are trying to focus on.

**DONOTDELETE** · 03-24-2004, 02:35 PM

Quote:

wwharton said:

Quote:

gooberstabone said:

Quote:

wwharton said:
...For example, there is a primary WR, others may be decoys but there's at least a secondary but there may be a full progression... whatever. When you flip the play this is still true. The only people that would have a problem with this are those that don't really care about the point of the play and just call it and throw to the guy they see open. Not that there's anything wrong with that but to master the game you do more than that when calling your plays. If your brain works that way you'd think the guy on the left is open, I should be able to hit L. If you're more about strategy which the game is geared to you'd probably say, "primary reciever is a, secondary is x, etc." so flipping the play wouldn't change that. If you did flip it and it changed that then thinking like that would actually screw you up even more.

see? different games, different philosophies... it just is what it is.

I see what you're saying... But I must be thinking with the wrong side of my brain or somethin' .

'Cause let's say I running QUADS. I know (just from playing the game a hundred times) that the left slot receiver is the "X" button on Xbox. The game tells me that that's the primary receiver by putting his name above the play and by marking his route in red. Now in my mind, I know that he may not be open, even though I definitely will look to him first. So I may make the slot reciever on the right side my secondary target (the "Y" button).

I get to the line of scrimmage-- in the heat of battle, palms sweating, going up against my best bro. For whatever reason, I decide to flip the play. In ESPN, my primary reciever stays the "X" receiver, but I press "Y" to try to hit him because his on the right side of the field.

So I still have primary and secondary guys, but mentally, I assign them to spots on the field corresponding to original button layout, and not a floating button layout.

I understand how your brain is working and forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying there's something wrong with that. My point is I've found the best way to approach the LOS in ESPN is to know the patterns of the play you called and when you look over the d have an idea of who will be open at the time based on that. If I flip a play based on what i see i've already decided i'm flipping b/c a certain pattern will work better if i do and would know the button assigned to that pattern.

It seems that madden reinforces more reading defenses after the snap than before. This goes along with the amount of time they continue to let you have in the pocket as well, but that's another topic. For a system that encourages more reads after the snap then keeping the buttons in the same positions makes more sense. For a system that encourages making correct play calls for the D and reading the d more presnap it makes more sense to keep buttons aligned to the patterns.

the long and short of it is ESPN doesn't need to change their button layout b/c it accomplishes what they are trying to focus on.

Yeah, yeah, I get it... I get it! Thanks, Wwharton, I think this will change my way of playing the game to a degree-- even if I DON'T flip the play. Because I have been making very, very, few pre-snap reads. This actually might cause me to flip the plays MORE, because of doing pre-snap reads. Paying more attention to defensive positioning before the snap (and maybe even sending a man in motion to detect zone coverage) can only help my offense.

coogrfan · 03-24-2004, 11:49 PM

Quote:

gooberstabone said:

Quote:

wwharton said:

Quote:

gooberstabone said:

Quote:

wwharton said:
...For example, there is a primary WR, others may be decoys but there's at least a secondary but there may be a full progression... whatever. When you flip the play this is still true. The only people that would have a problem with this are those that don't really care about the point of the play and just call it and throw to the guy they see open. Not that there's anything wrong with that but to master the game you do more than that when calling your plays. If your brain works that way you'd think the guy on the left is open, I should be able to hit L. If you're more about strategy which the game is geared to you'd probably say, "primary reciever is a, secondary is x, etc." so flipping the play wouldn't change that. If you did flip it and it changed that then thinking like that would actually screw you up even more.

see? different games, different philosophies... it just is what it is.

I see what you're saying... But I must be thinking with the wrong side of my brain or somethin' .

'Cause let's say I running QUADS. I know (just from playing the game a hundred times) that the left slot receiver is the "X" button on Xbox. The game tells me that that's the primary receiver by putting his name above the play and by marking his route in red. Now in my mind, I know that he may not be open, even though I definitely will look to him first. So I may make the slot reciever on the right side my secondary target (the "Y" button).

I get to the line of scrimmage-- in the heat of battle, palms sweating, going up against my best bro. For whatever reason, I decide to flip the play. In ESPN, my primary reciever stays the "X" receiver, but I press "Y" to try to hit him because his on the right side of the field.

So I still have primary and secondary guys, but mentally, I assign them to spots on the field corresponding to original button layout, and not a floating button layout.

I understand how your brain is working and forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying there's something wrong with that. My point is I've found the best way to approach the LOS in ESPN is to know the patterns of the play you called and when you look over the d have an idea of who will be open at the time based on that. If I flip a play based on what i see i've already decided i'm flipping b/c a certain pattern will work better if i do and would know the button assigned to that pattern.

It seems that madden reinforces more reading defenses after the snap than before. This goes along with the amount of time they continue to let you have in the pocket as well, but that's another topic. For a system that encourages more reads after the snap then keeping the buttons in the same positions makes more sense. For a system that encourages making correct play calls for the D and reading the d more presnap it makes more sense to keep buttons aligned to the patterns.

the long and short of it is ESPN doesn't need to change their button layout b/c it accomplishes what they are trying to focus on.

Yeah, yeah, I get it... I get it! Thanks, Wwharton, I think this will change my way of playing the game to a degree-- even if I DON'T flip the play. Because I have been making very, very, few pre-snap reads. This actually might cause me to flip the plays MORE, because of doing pre-snap reads. Paying more attention to defensive positioning before the snap (and maybe even sending a man in motion to detect zone coverage) can only help my offense.

I could see your point, wwharton, if Segas button assignments were directly related to the play(i.e. primary receiver was always L1, secondary receiver was always x, etc.). But as it is, imho it seems more likely that this is just another example of sloppy development work by the folks at VC.

jmood88 · 03-25-2004, 06:16 AM

How is it sloppy development? It's been like that since the beginning and people are just lazy if they are complaining about it. If you just hit the right trigger you can see the button assignmenys. It doesn't make you think at all. It's easy.

wwharton · 03-25-2004, 11:16 AM

Quote:

gooberstabone said:

Quote:

wwharton said:

Quote:

gooberstabone said:

Quote:

wwharton said:
...For example, there is a primary WR, others may be decoys but there's at least a secondary but there may be a full progression... whatever. When you flip the play this is still true. The only people that would have a problem with this are those that don't really care about the point of the play and just call it and throw to the guy they see open. Not that there's anything wrong with that but to master the game you do more than that when calling your plays. If your brain works that way you'd think the guy on the left is open, I should be able to hit L. If you're more about strategy which the game is geared to you'd probably say, "primary reciever is a, secondary is x, etc." so flipping the play wouldn't change that. If you did flip it and it changed that then thinking like that would actually screw you up even more.

see? different games, different philosophies... it just is what it is.

I see what you're saying... But I must be thinking with the wrong side of my brain or somethin' .

'Cause let's say I running QUADS. I know (just from playing the game a hundred times) that the left slot receiver is the "X" button on Xbox. The game tells me that that's the primary receiver by putting his name above the play and by marking his route in red. Now in my mind, I know that he may not be open, even though I definitely will look to him first. So I may make the slot reciever on the right side my secondary target (the "Y" button).

I get to the line of scrimmage-- in the heat of battle, palms sweating, going up against my best bro. For whatever reason, I decide to flip the play. In ESPN, my primary reciever stays the "X" receiver, but I press "Y" to try to hit him because his on the right side of the field.

So I still have primary and secondary guys, but mentally, I assign them to spots on the field corresponding to original button layout, and not a floating button layout.

I understand how your brain is working and forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying there's something wrong with that. My point is I've found the best way to approach the LOS in ESPN is to know the patterns of the play you called and when you look over the d have an idea of who will be open at the time based on that. If I flip a play based on what i see i've already decided i'm flipping b/c a certain pattern will work better if i do and would know the button assigned to that pattern.

It seems that madden reinforces more reading defenses after the snap than before. This goes along with the amount of time they continue to let you have in the pocket as well, but that's another topic. For a system that encourages more reads after the snap then keeping the buttons in the same positions makes more sense. For a system that encourages making correct play calls for the D and reading the d more presnap it makes more sense to keep buttons aligned to the patterns.

the long and short of it is ESPN doesn't need to change their button layout b/c it accomplishes what they are trying to focus on.

Yeah, yeah, I get it... I get it! Thanks, Wwharton, I think this will change my way of playing the game to a degree-- even if I DON'T flip the play. Because I have been making very, very, few pre-snap reads. This actually might cause me to flip the plays MORE, because of doing pre-snap reads. Paying more attention to defensive positioning before the snap (and maybe even sending a man in motion to detect zone coverage) can only help my offense.

I'd actually bet it makes you flip plays less b/c it's easy to identify who will probably be open. I rarely flip plays on O, instead sending a WR in motion if I see something.

COn, I gotta agree, it would be MUCH more confusing if they changed the button layout to always be in order of first read, second read, etc. In fact that would make MORE sense for someone that does post-reads rather than pre-reads. As it is the button layout is ALWAYS the same from left to right and if you flip it, from right to left. It's very simple, just different from madden... different enough to make you think if you're used to playing a lot of NCAA and Madden.

Tyrant8RDFL · 03-27-2004, 11:29 PM

Are u guys talking about in the huddle or on the field. This question that iam posting here is in reference to the on field flipping.
My question about this flipping the play scenario is this. Do they flip plays in the NFL? I dont know since I never played in the NFL, but I did play 12 yrs of organized football. Pop warner and Semi pro football, and never in my 12 yrs have we ever flipped a play during a game or practice. It actually never came up, so why is it in the game?

Just a question, also do u consider it cheesy?

rudyjuly2 · 03-28-2004, 07:50 AM

With regards to flipping the play, it might be a bit cheesy but the defense usually changes up a bit with an audible. I don't like doing it. I do believe Peyton Manning does a lot of that at the line in terms of flipping running plays from one side to the other. Its more legitimate with the Colts though as the formation remains the same in a double TE formation.

As for flipping pass plays, I would think they would be more likely to audible to a different play all together rather than "flip".

03-24-2004, 01:58 PM	#73
Dark_Lord_Vader Banned OVR: 9 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Georgia (Heart in Colorado)	Re: Most needed improvement Quote: *gooberstabone said:* Good point. I thought we'd get more of that this past year. The SB was OK, but I thought all the playoff games were gonna have more life. And we still don't have the crowd noise swelling DURING big play, only afterward. I remember that FIFA '97 even had that. I used to love that! Me too goober. I expected a lot more detail in Playoff games. This year was disappointing in that a Playoff Game still feels like a regular season game. Sure, Dan & Peter say 'Welcome to this year's Wild Card Game…' and there is a logo on the field that simply states 'PLAYOFFS', but other than these two details, the game begins, plays, feels sounds and ends like every other game. I really hope Sega concentrates on the second season known as The Playoffs. NFL2k5 would be awesome if the Playoffs unlocked a unique presentation style that looks and sounds totally different from the regular season. Maybe have player introductions at the beginning of the game. Have more crowd cut-scenes where the home crowd is decked out in Divisional Championship apparel. Bring back the 'Pump Up The Crowd' feature and have it be effective in a home Playoff Game. Have the visiting team false start once in a while during a crucial part of the game because you got your crowd to get loud. Maybe a half-time show with an interview of one of the coaches asking him what they need to do differently for the second half. Most importantly, have a post game celebration for the winner, with cut-scenes of the losers with their head in their hands, shaking in disbelief. If the visiting team won, show the depression of the fans in the stands after the game. If the home team wins, have confetti, canon fire, fireworks and Championship Hats and T-Shirts on some of the players. NFL2k4 made a big first step with the Super Bowl presentation this year. Now they need to make every Playoff Game as special as the Super Bowl is this year, and then have the Super Bowl be about 20 times deeper, unique and enjoyable.

03-24-2004, 02:20 PM	#74
wwharton ll Str OVR: 28 Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 26,978	Re: Most needed improvement Quote: *gooberstabone said:* Quote: *wwharton said:* ...For example, there is a primary WR, others may be decoys but there's at least a secondary but there may be a full progression... whatever. When you flip the play this is still true. The only people that would have a problem with this are those that don't really care about the point of the play and just call it and throw to the guy they see open. Not that there's anything wrong with that but to master the game you do more than that when calling your plays. If your brain works that way you'd think the guy on the left is open, I should be able to hit L. If you're more about strategy which the game is geared to you'd probably say, "primary reciever is a, secondary is x, etc." so flipping the play wouldn't change that. If you did flip it and it changed that then thinking like that would actually screw you up even more. see? different games, different philosophies... it just is what it is. I see what you're saying... But I must be thinking with the wrong side of my brain or somethin' . 'Cause let's say I running QUADS. I know (just from playing the game a hundred times) that the left slot receiver is the "X" button on Xbox. The game tells me that that's the primary receiver by putting his name above the play and by marking his route in red. Now in my mind, I know that he may not be open, even though I definitely will look to him first. So I may make the slot reciever on the right side my secondary target (the "Y" button). I get to the line of scrimmage-- in the heat of battle, palms sweating, going up against my best bro. For whatever reason, I decide to flip the play. In ESPN, my primary reciever stays the "X" receiver, but I press "Y" to try to hit him because his on the right side of the field. So I still have primary and secondary guys, but mentally, I assign them to spots on the field corresponding to original button layout, and not a floating button layout. I understand how your brain is working and forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying there's something wrong with that. My point is I've found the best way to approach the LOS in ESPN is to know the patterns of the play you called and when you look over the d have an idea of who will be open at the time based on that. If I flip a play based on what i see i've already decided i'm flipping b/c a certain pattern will work better if i do and would know the button assigned to that pattern. It seems that madden reinforces more reading defenses after the snap than before. This goes along with the amount of time they continue to let you have in the pocket as well, but that's another topic. For a system that encourages more reads after the snap then keeping the buttons in the same positions makes more sense. For a system that encourages making correct play calls for the D and reading the d more presnap it makes more sense to keep buttons aligned to the patterns. the long and short of it is ESPN doesn't need to change their button layout b/c it accomplishes what they are trying to focus on.

03-24-2004, 02:35 PM	#75
DONOTDELETE Hall Of Fame OVR: 1 Join Date: Dec 1969	Re: Most needed improvement Quote: *wwharton said:* Quote: *gooberstabone said:* Quote: *wwharton said:* ...For example, there is a primary WR, others may be decoys but there's at least a secondary but there may be a full progression... whatever. When you flip the play this is still true. The only people that would have a problem with this are those that don't really care about the point of the play and just call it and throw to the guy they see open. Not that there's anything wrong with that but to master the game you do more than that when calling your plays. If your brain works that way you'd think the guy on the left is open, I should be able to hit L. If you're more about strategy which the game is geared to you'd probably say, "primary reciever is a, secondary is x, etc." so flipping the play wouldn't change that. If you did flip it and it changed that then thinking like that would actually screw you up even more. see? different games, different philosophies... it just is what it is. I see what you're saying... But I must be thinking with the wrong side of my brain or somethin' . 'Cause let's say I running QUADS. I know (just from playing the game a hundred times) that the left slot receiver is the "X" button on Xbox. The game tells me that that's the primary receiver by putting his name above the play and by marking his route in red. Now in my mind, I know that he may not be open, even though I definitely will look to him first. So I may make the slot reciever on the right side my secondary target (the "Y" button). I get to the line of scrimmage-- in the heat of battle, palms sweating, going up against my best bro. For whatever reason, I decide to flip the play. In ESPN, my primary reciever stays the "X" receiver, but I press "Y" to try to hit him because his on the right side of the field. So I still have primary and secondary guys, but mentally, I assign them to spots on the field corresponding to original button layout, and not a floating button layout. I understand how your brain is working and forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying there's something wrong with that. My point is I've found the best way to approach the LOS in ESPN is to know the patterns of the play you called and when you look over the d have an idea of who will be open at the time based on that. If I flip a play based on what i see i've already decided i'm flipping b/c a certain pattern will work better if i do and would know the button assigned to that pattern. It seems that madden reinforces more reading defenses after the snap than before. This goes along with the amount of time they continue to let you have in the pocket as well, but that's another topic. For a system that encourages more reads after the snap then keeping the buttons in the same positions makes more sense. For a system that encourages making correct play calls for the D and reading the d more presnap it makes more sense to keep buttons aligned to the patterns. the long and short of it is ESPN doesn't need to change their button layout b/c it accomplishes what they are trying to focus on. Yeah, yeah, I get it... I get it! Thanks, Wwharton, I think this will change my way of playing the game to a degree-- even if I DON'T flip the play. Because I have been making very, very, few pre-snap reads. This actually might cause me to flip the plays MORE, because of doing pre-snap reads. Paying more attention to defensive positioning before the snap (and maybe even sending a man in motion to detect zone coverage) can only help my offense.

03-24-2004, 11:49 PM	#76
coogrfan #HTownTakeover #YWCF OVR: 27 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 15,576	Re: Most needed improvement Quote: *gooberstabone said:* Quote: *wwharton said:* Quote: *gooberstabone said:* Quote: *wwharton said:* ...For example, there is a primary WR, others may be decoys but there's at least a secondary but there may be a full progression... whatever. When you flip the play this is still true. The only people that would have a problem with this are those that don't really care about the point of the play and just call it and throw to the guy they see open. Not that there's anything wrong with that but to master the game you do more than that when calling your plays. If your brain works that way you'd think the guy on the left is open, I should be able to hit L. If you're more about strategy which the game is geared to you'd probably say, "primary reciever is a, secondary is x, etc." so flipping the play wouldn't change that. If you did flip it and it changed that then thinking like that would actually screw you up even more. see? different games, different philosophies... it just is what it is. I see what you're saying... But I must be thinking with the wrong side of my brain or somethin' . 'Cause let's say I running QUADS. I know (just from playing the game a hundred times) that the left slot receiver is the "X" button on Xbox. The game tells me that that's the primary receiver by putting his name above the play and by marking his route in red. Now in my mind, I know that he may not be open, even though I definitely will look to him first. So I may make the slot reciever on the right side my secondary target (the "Y" button). I get to the line of scrimmage-- in the heat of battle, palms sweating, going up against my best bro. For whatever reason, I decide to flip the play. In ESPN, my primary reciever stays the "X" receiver, but I press "Y" to try to hit him because his on the right side of the field. So I still have primary and secondary guys, but mentally, I assign them to spots on the field corresponding to original button layout, and not a floating button layout. I understand how your brain is working and forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying there's something wrong with that. My point is I've found the best way to approach the LOS in ESPN is to know the patterns of the play you called and when you look over the d have an idea of who will be open at the time based on that. If I flip a play based on what i see i've already decided i'm flipping b/c a certain pattern will work better if i do and would know the button assigned to that pattern. It seems that madden reinforces more reading defenses after the snap than before. This goes along with the amount of time they continue to let you have in the pocket as well, but that's another topic. For a system that encourages more reads after the snap then keeping the buttons in the same positions makes more sense. For a system that encourages making correct play calls for the D and reading the d more presnap it makes more sense to keep buttons aligned to the patterns. the long and short of it is ESPN doesn't need to change their button layout b/c it accomplishes what they are trying to focus on. Yeah, yeah, I get it... I get it! Thanks, Wwharton, I think this will change my way of playing the game to a degree-- even if I DON'T flip the play. Because I have been making very, very, few pre-snap reads. This actually might cause me to flip the plays MORE, because of doing pre-snap reads. Paying more attention to defensive positioning before the snap (and maybe even sending a man in motion to detect zone coverage) can only help my offense. I could see your point, wwharton, if Segas button assignments were directly related to the play(i.e. primary receiver was always L1, secondary receiver was always x, etc.). But as it is, imho it seems more likely that this is just another example of sloppy development work by the folks at VC.

03-25-2004, 06:16 AM	#77
jmood88 Sean Payton: Retribution OVR: 40 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 34,640 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Most needed improvement How is it sloppy development? It's been like that since the beginning and people are just lazy if they are complaining about it. If you just hit the right trigger you can see the button assignmenys. It doesn't make you think at all. It's easy.

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	Where Are Our College Basketball Video Game Rumors?

03-25-2004, 11:16 AM	#78
wwharton ll Str OVR: 28 Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 26,978	Re: Most needed improvement Quote: *gooberstabone said:* Quote: *wwharton said:* Quote: *gooberstabone said:* Quote: *wwharton said:* ...For example, there is a primary WR, others may be decoys but there's at least a secondary but there may be a full progression... whatever. When you flip the play this is still true. The only people that would have a problem with this are those that don't really care about the point of the play and just call it and throw to the guy they see open. Not that there's anything wrong with that but to master the game you do more than that when calling your plays. If your brain works that way you'd think the guy on the left is open, I should be able to hit L. If you're more about strategy which the game is geared to you'd probably say, "primary reciever is a, secondary is x, etc." so flipping the play wouldn't change that. If you did flip it and it changed that then thinking like that would actually screw you up even more. see? different games, different philosophies... it just is what it is. I see what you're saying... But I must be thinking with the wrong side of my brain or somethin' . 'Cause let's say I running QUADS. I know (just from playing the game a hundred times) that the left slot receiver is the "X" button on Xbox. The game tells me that that's the primary receiver by putting his name above the play and by marking his route in red. Now in my mind, I know that he may not be open, even though I definitely will look to him first. So I may make the slot reciever on the right side my secondary target (the "Y" button). I get to the line of scrimmage-- in the heat of battle, palms sweating, going up against my best bro. For whatever reason, I decide to flip the play. In ESPN, my primary reciever stays the "X" receiver, but I press "Y" to try to hit him because his on the right side of the field. So I still have primary and secondary guys, but mentally, I assign them to spots on the field corresponding to original button layout, and not a floating button layout. I understand how your brain is working and forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying there's something wrong with that. My point is I've found the best way to approach the LOS in ESPN is to know the patterns of the play you called and when you look over the d have an idea of who will be open at the time based on that. If I flip a play based on what i see i've already decided i'm flipping b/c a certain pattern will work better if i do and would know the button assigned to that pattern. It seems that madden reinforces more reading defenses after the snap than before. This goes along with the amount of time they continue to let you have in the pocket as well, but that's another topic. For a system that encourages more reads after the snap then keeping the buttons in the same positions makes more sense. For a system that encourages making correct play calls for the D and reading the d more presnap it makes more sense to keep buttons aligned to the patterns. the long and short of it is ESPN doesn't need to change their button layout b/c it accomplishes what they are trying to focus on. Yeah, yeah, I get it... I get it! Thanks, Wwharton, I think this will change my way of playing the game to a degree-- even if I DON'T flip the play. Because I have been making very, very, few pre-snap reads. This actually might cause me to flip the plays MORE, because of doing pre-snap reads. Paying more attention to defensive positioning before the snap (and maybe even sending a man in motion to detect zone coverage) can only help my offense. I'd actually bet it makes you flip plays less b/c it's easy to identify who will probably be open. I rarely flip plays on O, instead sending a WR in motion if I see something. COn, I gotta agree, it would be MUCH more confusing if they changed the button layout to always be in order of first read, second read, etc. In fact that would make MORE sense for someone that does post-reads rather than pre-reads. As it is the button layout is ALWAYS the same from left to right and if you flip it, from right to left. It's very simple, just different from madden... different enough to make you think if you're used to playing a lot of NCAA and Madden.

03-27-2004, 11:29 PM	#79
Tyrant8RDFL MVP OVR: 20 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Queens New York	Re: Most needed improvement Are u guys talking about in the huddle or on the field. This question that iam posting here is in reference to the on field flipping. My question about this flipping the play scenario is this. Do they flip plays in the NFL? I dont know since I never played in the NFL, but I did play 12 yrs of organized football. Pop warner and Semi pro football, and never in my 12 yrs have we ever flipped a play during a game or practice. It actually never came up, so why is it in the game? Just a question, also do u consider it cheesy?

03-28-2004, 07:50 AM	#80
rudyjuly2 Cade Cunningham OVR: 75 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kingsville, ON Posts: 14,741 Blog Entries: 110	Re: Most needed improvement With regards to flipping the play, it might be a bit cheesy but the defense usually changes up a bit with an audible. I don't like doing it. I do believe Peyton Manning does a lot of that at the line in terms of flipping running plays from one side to the other. Its more legitimate with the Colts though as the formation remains the same in a double TE formation. As for flipping pass plays, I would think they would be more likely to audible to a different play all together rather than "flip".

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