Most needed improvement

[solja]

not only that....i like the idea of having the juke animation as the transition...they can then bring back the 2k3 juke animation as the official one........



but the biggest improvement to me!...remove the transperant ball............I DO NOT WANT TO SEE!!!!-the ball pass straight through my defenders palms n land into the recievers hands!AAARRHHHH!!!!!i hate seeing that so much..no body understands how much i hate that.....that is like a kick in the groins..realism is thrown out the window..when a ball passes throught a defenders fingers and lands in the wr's for a touchdown..n you have to agonize lossing the game because of this!!!!!!!!!!! and the replay hurts more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....rrrrrrrroaaarhhh!!!!!!!! vc i am pissed at seeing that...

[jmood88]

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spankdatazz22 said:
The most needed improvements are easily (already been mentioned) directional/transitional/running animations and improved ball physics. These are the two things I'm most interested in looking for when videos of the game start trickling out. Those two problems run across most of VC's sports games, so I'm REALLY hoping they've seen it's a big issue. There just shouldn't be the 180's and pivoting on one foot to depict directional changes.

Like someone else mentioned, if it has the same control issues many people won't even give it the time of day, regardless of how much improvement is put into franchise, online, or FPF. Idle animation improvement would also do a lot to add to the feel of the game, not unlike how the 10-man mo cap in NBA Live adds so much more to the feel of that game.

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What is wrong with the ball physics? I keep hearing this but people never explain what they're talking about. THe ball bounces and moves through the air realistically.

[spankdatazz22]

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jmood88 said:

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spankdatazz22 said:
The most needed improvements are easily (already been mentioned) directional/transitional/running animations and improved ball physics. These are the two things I'm most interested in looking for when videos of the game start trickling out. Those two problems run across most of VC's sports games, so I'm REALLY hoping they've seen it's a big issue. There just shouldn't be the 180's and pivoting on one foot to depict directional changes.

Like someone else mentioned, if it has the same control issues many people won't even give it the time of day, regardless of how much improvement is put into franchise, online, or FPF. Idle animation improvement would also do a lot to add to the feel of the game, not unlike how the 10-man mo cap in NBA Live adds so much more to the feel of that game.

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What is wrong with the ball physics? I keep hearing this but people never explain what they're talking about. THe ball bounces and moves through the air realistically.

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It's difficult to get a good feel for touch passes. Passes over the middle in particular seem to "float" in the air longer than they should. And deep passes on fly patterns seem weird; maybe because of a combination of the way the QB never steps up into the pocket and the way the ball arcs downward - it seems like the ground comes UP to meet the ball, if that's the right way to describe it. Medium-deep passes over the middle seem to have a ton of velocity yet not much air under them - it seems as though there's little difference between strong armed QBs and weaker ones.

I do agree that the ball bounces realistically once it's hit the ground, or touched - players for whatever reason don't react to it as quickly as they should though. If you look at ESPN Basketball, it's kinda similiar - the ball physics when the ball hits the rim are the best, but (most) jump shots and passes seem to have that same "arc" to them.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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solja said:
not only that....i like the idea of having the juke animation as the transition...they can then bring back the 2k3 juke animation as the official one........



but the biggest improvement to me!...remove the transperant ball............I DO NOT WANT TO SEE!!!!-the ball pass straight through my defenders palms n land into the recievers hands!AAARRHHHH!!!!!i hate seeing that so much..no body understands how much i hate that.....that is like a kick in the groins..realism is thrown out the window..when a ball passes throught a defenders fingers and lands in the wr's for a touchdown..n you have to agonize lossing the game because of this!!!!!!!!!!! and the replay hurts more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....rrrrrrrroaaarhhh!!!!!!!! vc i am pissed at seeing that...

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Yeah, that's pretty bad. It quite as bad as it used to be in the olden days of Sega Genesis, where the ball would ROUTINELY go through YOUR WHOLE BODY, and into the receiver behind you.

Getting it completely right would also spell the end of ALL the "clipping" issues such as having a leg, arm, helmet, etc. go through parts of other player bodies during tackles, sacks, runs... everything.

It's a collision detection issue. I don't know how much work or how much we'd have to sacrifice in other aspects of the game in order to have near-flawless collision detection. They could widen the field of detection, but then it would seem like players had a small force field around them. But the problem would be solved. No more balls going through defenders.

[LBzrule]

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gooberstabone said:
Hey LBrulz and Kanobi, did you read my earlier post? What do you guys think of this suggestion based on what we've been talking about:

"While playing the game last night, I noticed that it appears to me that much of that problem would be resolved if they used the regular "juke" animation as the basis for normal left and right movements. Then perhaps all they would need is a few frames (only when necessary) showing the runner crossing foot-over-foot to make "drastic" directional cuts.

Hitting the juke button would then have to be a different animation with some noticeable shoulder action which would be MUCH more pronounced with Barry Sanders-type backs. Hitting the juke button would cause the back to get much lower as he really digs in, and then almost "spring" back up to whatever side he's jukin' to.

So the juke as it is now would be used as the basic animation (with minor tweaks) for regular analog-stick change of direction, and then we'd be given an all-new juke for faking people out.

I know a little something about animation, and the problem with the juke as it is is that it's not pronounced enough. Good animation slightly exaggerates normal movements to make them look, well... normal!

Back to the change of direction using the current juke, by it's very nature, I think that this would automatically also give us the momentum that we're all looking for that we only got a tiny taste of this year, because you'd have those extra steps the runner is taking to change direction. It might make the running feel sluggish at first, but we'd get used to it."

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Maybe you are on to something here. So let me get this straight. The current L and R trigger jukes would automatically be apart of the running animation if you go left or right on the analog instead of the twitching and turning? Hey that's not a bad idea. It eliminates the turning but the thing is, this would just be apart of movement it's not really a fake. The thing that makes me a bit ill about the current juke is that defenders ALWAYS sit down and bite on it. Highly annoying. As long as no one bites on it on a consistent basis, AWESOME I think. There are also at least 2 jukes on the right analog stick. The stop and go and then the other one is really nice if you get hit you spin out of the tackle, but if you don't you can see the footwork a little bit and the defenders just sit down. Hmmm that's interesting. But now here's the catch. If the ball carrier can't do that twitching and turning anymore, what will the defenders be like in their running animations? As they don't have juke moves. What will their transitions look like? But yeah that definately addresses the turning. The reason why the turning is sooo bad is because you can run an iso play in this game and make all the defenders crash on the iso and EASILY turn and run outside for a TD alot of times uncontested.

This would also make tackling alot better since you won't miss as much due to the swift turning by the RB's.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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LBzrule said:

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gooberstabone said:
Hey LBrulz and Kanobi, did you read my earlier post? What do you guys think of this suggestion based on what we've been talking about:

"While playing the game last night, I noticed that it appears to me that much of that problem would be resolved if they used the regular "juke" animation as the basis for normal left and right movements. Then perhaps all they would need is a few frames (only when necessary) showing the runner crossing foot-over-foot to make "drastic" directional cuts.

Hitting the juke button would then have to be a different animation with some noticeable shoulder action which would be MUCH more pronounced with Barry Sanders-type backs. Hitting the juke button would cause the back to get much lower as he really digs in, and then almost "spring" back up to whatever side he's jukin' to.

So the juke as it is now would be used as the basic animation (with minor tweaks) for regular analog-stick change of direction, and then we'd be given an all-new juke for faking people out.

I know a little something about animation, and the problem with the juke as it is is that it's not pronounced enough. Good animation slightly exaggerates normal movements to make them look, well... normal!

Back to the change of direction using the current juke, by it's very nature, I think that this would automatically also give us the momentum that we're all looking for that we only got a tiny taste of this year, because you'd have those extra steps the runner is taking to change direction. It might make the running feel sluggish at first, but we'd get used to it."

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Maybe you are on to something here. So let me get this straight. The current L and R trigger jukes would automatically be apart of the running animation if you go left or right on the analog instead of the twitching and turning? Hey that's not a bad idea. It eliminates the turning but the thing is, this would just be apart of movement it's not really a fake. The thing that makes me a bit ill about the current juke is that defenders ALWAYS sit down and bite on it. Highly annoying. As long as no one bites on it on a consistent basis, AWESOME I think. There are also at least 2 jukes on the right analog stick. The stop and go and then the other one is really nice if you get hit you spin out of the tackle, but if you don't you can see the footwork a little bit and the defenders just sit down. Hmmm that's interesting. But now here's the catch. If the ball carrier can't do that twitching and turning anymore, what will the defenders be like in their running animations? As they don't have juke moves. What will their transitions look like? But yeah that definately addresses the turning. The reason why the turning is sooo bad is because you can run an iso play in this game and make all the defenders crash on the iso and EASILY turn and run outside for a TD alot of times uncontested.

This would also make tackling alot better since you won't miss as much due to the swift turning by the RB's.

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Defenders could move the same way. Look, the juke in the game, although effective at times, is not really a juke at all. All it is IS A CHANGE OF DIRECTION. To me, a genuine juke is a stutter-steppin'-shoulder-shimmying move followed by a jump-step either left or right. Like Barry Sanders. Now that's jukin'. Player ratings (agility) could affect the SPEED OF the shoulder movements and stutter-step footwork, as well as how FAR the player actually "bounces" left or right.

But yeah, the so-called juke as it stands now could be used as the change of direction on offense AND defense, because there's really no shoulder shaking or stuttering, just planting one foot and then moving in the opposite direction. That's not juking that just how anybody who's runnin' needs to turn!

[LBzrule]

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gooberstabone said:

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LBzrule said:

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gooberstabone said:
Hey LBrulz and Kanobi, did you read my earlier post? What do you guys think of this suggestion based on what we've been talking about:

"While playing the game last night, I noticed that it appears to me that much of that problem would be resolved if they used the regular "juke" animation as the basis for normal left and right movements. Then perhaps all they would need is a few frames (only when necessary) showing the runner crossing foot-over-foot to make "drastic" directional cuts.

Hitting the juke button would then have to be a different animation with some noticeable shoulder action which would be MUCH more pronounced with Barry Sanders-type backs. Hitting the juke button would cause the back to get much lower as he really digs in, and then almost "spring" back up to whatever side he's jukin' to.

So the juke as it is now would be used as the basic animation (with minor tweaks) for regular analog-stick change of direction, and then we'd be given an all-new juke for faking people out.

I know a little something about animation, and the problem with the juke as it is is that it's not pronounced enough. Good animation slightly exaggerates normal movements to make them look, well... normal!

Back to the change of direction using the current juke, by it's very nature, I think that this would automatically also give us the momentum that we're all looking for that we only got a tiny taste of this year, because you'd have those extra steps the runner is taking to change direction. It might make the running feel sluggish at first, but we'd get used to it."

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Maybe you are on to something here. So let me get this straight. The current L and R trigger jukes would automatically be apart of the running animation if you go left or right on the analog instead of the twitching and turning? Hey that's not a bad idea. It eliminates the turning but the thing is, this would just be apart of movement it's not really a fake. The thing that makes me a bit ill about the current juke is that defenders ALWAYS sit down and bite on it. Highly annoying. As long as no one bites on it on a consistent basis, AWESOME I think. There are also at least 2 jukes on the right analog stick. The stop and go and then the other one is really nice if you get hit you spin out of the tackle, but if you don't you can see the footwork a little bit and the defenders just sit down. Hmmm that's interesting. But now here's the catch. If the ball carrier can't do that twitching and turning anymore, what will the defenders be like in their running animations? As they don't have juke moves. What will their transitions look like? But yeah that definately addresses the turning. The reason why the turning is sooo bad is because you can run an iso play in this game and make all the defenders crash on the iso and EASILY turn and run outside for a TD alot of times uncontested.

This would also make tackling alot better since you won't miss as much due to the swift turning by the RB's.

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Defenders could move the same way. Look, the juke in the game, although effective at times, is not really a juke at all. All it is IS A CHANGE OF DIRECTION. To me, a genuine juke is a stutter-steppin'-shoulder-shimmying move followed by a jump-step either left or right. Like Barry Sanders. Now that's jukin'. Player ratings (agility) could affect the SPEED OF the shoulder movements and stutter-step footwork, as well as how FAR the player actually "bounces" left or right.

But yeah, the so-called juke as it stands now could be used as the change of direction on offense AND defense, because there's really no shoulder shaking or stuttering, just planting one foot and then moving in the opposite direction. That's not juking that just how anybody who's runnin' needs to turn!

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I like it. This might be the BEST idea out of all for improvements I've seen for the game. IT will add an added touch of momentum without going MADDEN style and it alone can improve defense and tackling at the same time because you can't turn and make people miss so easily. You won't be able to run an Iso play and then make all the defenders crash inside and EASILY turn outside uncontested and run for the endzone. Consider it sent to head A.I.

[Kanobi]

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gooberstabone said:
....just planting one foot and then moving in the opposite direction. That's not juking that just how anybody who's runnin' needs to turn!

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Exactly! Thats why I posted the photos showing runners planting their feet to change direction. This is an absolute must for ALL players. I'm sure VC can come with a variety of animations depending on the situation, player (weight/running style), and the movement of the left analog. I'd love if there were different transitions for guys with lower agility or heavier guys like big dtackles and Olinemen, etc. That'd be sweet but I don't expect that this year.

The bottomline...NO MORE ICE-SKATING!!!...with transitional, change of direction anims...the gameplay would be seriously upgraded. Thats the most needed improvement IMO.