It's funny how momentum is suddenly a great thing when...

[wwharton]

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Sigma4Life said:

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wwharton said:

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Sigma4Life said:

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wwharton said:

Seriously though, the 2k approach is to allow for more control of the players and is the reason that playing D is more fun and that I prefer it's running game where using special moves are required (unless you want to just jerk back and forth unrealistically which I also mentioned... leaving me more confused by the above, but I digress).

For the record, my definition of momentum and my description of things match that that you posted. As stated, the 2k series has added more and more momentum every year. However, imo they could still use a little more but very little. The main addition needs to be transition animations. These animations would add the little bit I think it needs alone, make the look more realistic making it easier to make a play on a player cutting and should show a greater difference in speed and agility of players. My point is ALL 2k fans have asked for these things for some time now and NO 2k fans want momentum like madden so the original post is just false. Wanting animations, slightly more momentum, whatever you want to call it in no way means anyone wants the game to move like madden. It needs to be more realistic changing directions in look and feel without drastic loss of control. IMO, madden has a drastic lack of control for quick response situations.

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The original post never suggested that ESPN should have momentum just like Madden. I don't even like Madden's version of momentum. The point is, Madden showed us how momentum is important in any realistic football game. ESPN/NFL2Kx never had momentum because developers didn't want to be like Madden. They realize now that it is important so they are adding more momentum this year. Every season we see more of a convergence of the two top dawgs. Madden is making a lot of changes to be more like ESPN, and ESPN is changing all the same to be more like madden. Neither game is perfect, but each game does have it's strong points and weak points that need to be addressed. Madden has great transition animations and as a result has smoother animations overall. ESPN has better and cooler animations. The WR and CB battles, the blocking, and tackling animations are WAY better in ESPN.

IMO, NCAA 2004 is the ONLY football game that get's it right. Madden is too sluggish, especially on D, while ESPN is too arcady.

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You're still wrong. First the original post suggested that 2k fans acted like the game was AMAZING b/c it didn't have momentum and now are loving addition of momentum. Basically saying these fans were lying for the sake of defending their favorite title. That's just wrong. I won't write why again, just read my other posts.

Second, the 2k "approach" is about control and in no way is it moving toward Madden or trying to be more like madden. Madden didn't introduce momentum, nhl 94 did and I'm pretty sure Live had it next, then madden. even still, the way VC mocaps the players makes it need a TON of animations to make it look realistic with every turn. the glitch is that jerking back and forth quickly SHOULD give you a stutter step look when it gives you that crazy leaning look and an advantage. Madden doesn't give you a stutter step look, you just can't do it. there's too much momentum. many things are intertwined in making the running game look and feel realistic. i'm going with the general "momentum" for the sake of semantics but the 2k SYSTEM is drastically different than the Madden system so to just say they're adding momentum still can't be a movement toward madden without starting from the ground up.

The bottom line is this whole discussion is just a madden vs 2k batle. There's no need for it. VC is trying to make it's game as realistic as possible and many hear would tell you that doing anything like madden in the gameplay department is not the way to do it. So considering that alone, it should say that no 2k fans are thinking they're adding "momentum like madden".

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wwharton, this thread is only a madden vs 2k battle to YOU. To everyone else it's an objective discussion. If you would quite trying so hard to defend your favorite game you would understand that. My post and this thread have NOTHING to do with momentum in hockey, basketball, or hopscotch for that matter. I'm talking about momentum in FOOTBALL games. Madden was the first FOOTBALL game to have momentum, like it or not. Sega has never even tried to implement momentum until recently. Like it or not, ESPN will be a little more like Madden this year because of added momentum. Will it play like Madden, NO. But it WILL be more like Madden. In the same sense, Madden will be more like ESPN this year because they finally added defensive matchups, a feature Sega has had for several seasons.

It's obvious that you don't like Madden and that's fine. You said yourself, you would prefer for your players to turn on a dime rather than move like Madden's players. That only further fuels my original point. Any person that has been around these msg boards for more than a couple of years as I have, would know that most Sega football fans have NEVER wanted momentum until the last couple of years. Three or four years ago mentioning momentum and NFL2k in the same sentence was almost blasphemy. Now it's ESPN 2005's most talked about feature.

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I hate that these days people refuse to read what I write. Or maybe I'm writing in a way that just can't be understood. Please somebody tell me so I know what's going on.

How am I "just trying to defend your favorite title"? How is me saying I prefer the 2k style of running to Madden running saying 2k fans have never wanted momentum? You're so stuck on your point that for the 3rd time in a row you aren't even seeing what I'm saying. For your information I do like Madden. It's a damn good game. But yes I think ESPN is a better game. But to you that would mean I hate madden based on your previous posts. Little closed minded, eh?

Let me try to dumb this down for you... 2k fans have asked for more "momentum" for at least 3 years straight now. In those years 2k fans have still said how horrible madden's "momentum" is. Saying "I want more 'momentum'" does not mean "I want 'momentum' like madden". Not adding HEAVY momentum every year does not mean no momentum was added. Liking ESPN better than madden does not mean you think madden sucks.

can't be much clearer than that. if you reply with the exact same thing again, ignoring what i say i'll be done. just telling you now. that stuff was fun the first couple of times but it's just a waste of time now. if you want to talk about what i'm actually saying then we can continue discussing if you like.

[Tears2040]

Madden over the years has reduced it's momentum 2K added, so you tell me that neither camp has it right really.

But one thing I do know for shure is that in my opinion I prefer the tight control from the 2K series than Maddens which makes you not even feel like your controlling your players on screen.


Madden has this type of gameplay where you feel like you're never in control, I just do not like it at all.

What can I say both football games are great but if I could only choose one it's 2K
, peace

[wwharton]

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Tears2040 said:
Madden over the years has reduced it's momentum 2K added, so you tell me that neither camp has it right really.

But one thing I do know for shure is that in my opinion I prefer the tight control from the 2K series than Maddens which makes you not even feel like your controlling your players on screen.


Madden has this type of gameplay where you feel like you're never in control, I just do not like it at all.

What can I say both football games are great but if I could only choose one it's 2K
, peace

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That's exactly what I was saying so maybe your way will be clearer.

[BigBadB]

VC does need to tune-up there momentum, but only in a couple areas. Last year the open field momentum was done pretty well. Making a 45 or greater degree cut did cause the backs to slow down (especially when triggering the turbo), but there was no transition animation to really represent it right. Same thing was true of wide receivers running routes and players back in coverage.

At the line of scrimmage is where the momentum needs the biggest retooling. The current design fails to take into account the combined momentum of the offensive and defensive linemen at the point of contact. This fault in the system made designed cut backs almost impossible to pull off and chances of cutting against the grain on sweeps was even less.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think it honestly may have appeared to Sigma4Life that NFL 2kers didn't want momentum in the past but now all of the sudden do because when the argument over these two games started a few years back, some people mistakenly equated momentum with Madden. i.e., that "if you want momentum, then you must want it to control like Madden."

I can picture how it happened. Some Madden fan says "2kx is too arcadey. All the players turn on a dime."

Then, in their zeal to "defend their game"
some simple-minded 2k fan gets aaaallll hot an bothered over that opinion and retorts, "Well at least in my game I can actually control the players instead of feeling like I'm steering a boat!"

Then the word "momentum" is brought into the picture by someone and VERY QUICKLY it becomes ASSUMED that

Madden = proper momentum

Ultimately, EVERYBODY wants a realistic game. Of course they do. And of course ANYBODY, even 2k fans, can see that 2k's turning on a dime is not realistic. BUT!!! In their idiotic defense of the game, they forget this, and assume it's either this way or the "dreaded" Madden way. And when juuust a few people sound unreasonable like that, those few loud voices of unreason DROWN OUT the reasonable posters who say that "they love the responsive controls of 2k, but to make it more realistic, they need some transitional animations and more momentum so they don't 'ice-skate.'"

But I put the blame on anyone who assumes too much or goes beyond what a post really says.

Many a 2ker, in their zeal to "defend their beloved game" are so INTENT on proving a Madden player wrong that they stop seeing that their is another alternative. A happy medium between the two games. They fail to remember that it's not just Madden's way or 2k's way.

Of course the same can be said for Madden players too.

Again, from comments I've read in the past from immature sounding 2k fans, I can see how Sigma4life may have gotten the impression that "all of the sudden" 2k fans love momentum.

[wwharton]

i figured all that too, goober. what bothers me now though is that he'd post in a 2k forum about this generalizing all 2k fans. then when i calmly explain that's he's pretty much doing what you said i get labled a fan blindly defending my title. i post over and over about the differences you point out and all that is ignored and instead i'm once again just a super fanboy denying the truth.

like i said, this whole thread is a shot at 2k fans but b/c of what i said, basically what you just said, it's not true and rather than accept that it's easier to label anyone that disproves it a fanboy.

[Sigma4Life]

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gooberstabone said:
I think it honestly may have appeared to Sigma4Life that NFL 2kers didn't want momentum in the past but now all of the sudden do because when the argument over these two games started a few years back, some people mistakenly equated momentum with Madden. i.e., that "if you want momentum, then you must want it to control like Madden."

I can picture how it happened. Some Madden fan says "2kx is too arcadey. All the players turn on a dime."

Then, in their zeal to "defend their game"
some simple-minded 2k fan gets aaaallll hot an bothered over that opinion and retorts, "Well at least in my game I can actually control the players instead of feeling like I'm steering a boat!"

Then the word "momentum" is brought into the picture by someone and VERY QUICKLY it becomes ASSUMED that

Madden = proper momentum

Ultimately, EVERYBODY wants a realistic game. Of course they do. And of course ANYBODY, even 2k fans, can see that 2k's turning on a dime is not realistic. BUT!!! In their idiotic defense of the game, they forget this, and assume it's either this way or the "dreaded" Madden way. And when juuust a few people sound unreasonable like that, those few loud voices of unreason DROWN OUT the reasonable posters who say that "they love the responsive controls of 2k, but to make it more realistic, they need some transitional animations and more momentum so they don't 'ice-skate.'"

But I put the blame on anyone who assumes too much or goes beyond what a post really says.

Many a 2ker, in their zeal to "defend their beloved game" are so INTENT on proving a Madden player wrong that they stop seeing that their is another alternative. A happy medium between the two games. They fail to remember that it's not just Madden's way or 2k's way.

Of course the same can be said for Madden players too.

Again, from comments I've read in the past from immature sounding 2k fans, I can see how Sigma4life may have gotten the impression that "all of the sudden" 2k fans love momentum.

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Exactly my point goober.
But anyways, wwharton, we both agree more momentum needs to be added so it's all good.

[**DONOTDELETE**]